Why HKD?

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by Kong Soo Do, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,419
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    143
    Kevin, the hard part is nailing them and having it stick. We've both seen, just this year, someone claiming a 9th Dan in Hapkido and lineage to a certain individual...but no matter how many times details were asked for, none were forthcoming. Oddly enough this same person had no qualms about asking others for detailed information about themselves. As for others we all know about that were basically caught red-handed...how did it really affect them? I still see some of these individuals from time to time plying their wares in the martial art world. And of course the big problem is schools like the TKD school I brought up earlier this year that was bringing in a Korean Hapkido GM that would test you for, and grant Hapkido rank after just ONE weekend of training! To clarify (I still have the flyer), you did not have to have any previous experience in Hapkido. You only needed a BB in Hapkido and attend the weekend seminar (and of course pay a hefty seminar AND testing fee AND the check needed to clear). And to top it off, the Dan rank didn't necessarily start at the first Dan. If you were say a 5th Dan in TKD they might advance your one-weekend Hapkido Dan to perhaps 3rd or 4th. I reported on this and of course some of the usual suspects actually came out and tried to defend this as a valid way to earn a Hapkido BB! I think the party line was that it was none of our business what a Korean Hapkido GM did at a Korean TKD GM's school. We shouldn't questions such things.

    Point is that you can point out these things all day long. Just be prepared to see a few rush to the defense of these types of practices.
     
  2. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,419
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    143
    The part above in bold should have read 'Taekwondo' and not Hapkido. Typo on my part. The only requirement was a BB in TKD to get a BB in HKD.
     
  3. Instructor

    Instructor Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Location:
    Gloucester, VA
    In the old days they would have handled this with an old fashioned @$$ kicking. Nowadays not so much.
     
  4. Instructor

    Instructor Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,268
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Location:
    Gloucester, VA
    What is your solution?
     
  5. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    Hello all and Master Sogor, I am not really sure how to usequotes on several issues so I cut your response and bolded it and will answerin regular red text. I hope this is ok. Also,I am sorry my words were bunched up. Icut and pasted it from word and I guess it did not read the code correctly.
    I don't want toengage in pointing out which organization is headed by a first dan, and issuing9th dans...its easy to find out, if you are interested, I can PM you. And no,you never implied that is was OK, but it is prolific in Hapkido...and somethingthat absolutely undermines the art.

    I understand this may go on. LikeI said I know of Korean’s that left Korea as a 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] or 3[SUP]rd[/SUP]Dan Black Belt in Taekwondo and landed in the United States as a 6[SUP]th[/SUP]or 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan. So I take you atyour word that 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Dan’s are starting their own Associations and issuingrank they have no business issuing.

    Rank in an art that issues should give someone an idea of hierarchy - the factthat Hapkido rank is issued by many who do not have it is a problem, andsomething that should be openly addressed.

    I agree it should, but it does not. I hold a medium rank black belt’s in both Taekwondo and Hapkido undertwo different masters. Every black beltI have earned means the world to me. Butin the scheme of things, what does it represent except the power we giveit. I wear a white belt when I visit theJiujutsu. As soon as someone grabs me orI lock up with them they ask me what belt and what art am I in. I tell them I am a black belt in Hapkido, andthey always give me a snicker. Then, Ithrow them and they start respecting my skills, not the clothe around mywaist.
    In my 11 years owning my Dojang, I have personally only issuedfive black belts in Hapkido and all low black belts. I understand I do not have the authority toissue any belt higher than mine, nor do I wish too.

    Choi Dojunim modified his art right from the beginning, unfortunately manynever bothered to learn what he was actually teaching. All of Hapkido is"live training" (in my opinion a silly buzz word to try and make asporting art closer to a self defense art) - but again, there is a huge gap inknowledge when people think that wrist grabs, as an example, are not part of alarger picture that teach motion and energy for better defensive fighting.

    Live training may be a buzz word, but I see it as the truth thetechnique. I think sometimes we do nottrain as realistic as possible. I did anexperiment in class last week where I asked one of my higher belts to punch mein the chest so I could show a throw. Hethrew the punch and I did not move. He stoppedabout an inch from my chest. I told himto hit me and he re-threw the punch but to hit me. He did it again and barely tapped me. I told him to hit me with a punch in the chestand he did, hard that time. I had himhit me like six or seven times and I stopped and asked the class what my jobwas. They all gave their typical answersof side stepping, blocking and giving way to absorb the attack. My reply was, “Myjob is to get punched without doing anything”. I then had them punch each other for about five minutes.
    I then told them I was going to teach them the throw offthe punch. I told my attacker to punchme in the chest and he did. I did not block or move. I had him do it two more times before I actuallythrew the counter. I then had thestudents practice the same way. The attackerwould punch several times and then the defender would do the counter only afterthey were ready to not get hit. Iconsider that as live as it gets. I hopeI explained that so it is understandable.
    Did I learn wrist grabs? Yes I did. Do I teach them? I have before to teach themotion and energy flow. I had a Jiujitsustudent do a cross grab on me to pull my back to him so he could rear naked chokeme. The cross grab defense can in quitehandy. I think they have their place inour art.

    Choi Dojunim died in 1986, he taught actively until 1984 - his art was far more"current" than you might imagine.

    I can agree with you there. Master Park has very fond stories of Dojunim.He said his techniques were very strong and could cause much pain. I wishI was around too meet him and feel his techniques. I can only hear stories andfeel Master Parks techniques, so I have to settle for that.
    I also can say that in the 1990’s BJJ came to be mainstream and in late 1990’s early 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century boxing, wrestling andmuay thai was added to create a more well rounded MMA type of fighting.
    I guess Jiujitsu scared me so that is why I visit thatschool. I really trust my Hapkido when Iam on my feet. No one can really get meoff my feet. So I am confident that myMaster’s have taught me well.

    Yes, I have had a few run ins over the years. I have taught and trained formore than 30 years, on four continents, I have owned a security company (andgot training from a raft of security professionals - not just Hapkidotraining), and done security work in the US and Europe. I am ranked in severalstyles, and trained at dozens of non-Hapkido schools. Did I answer yourquestion?


    Yes. If it cameout that I was doubting your skills, that was not my intention. I believe we have similar back grounds. I have only been in the Martial Arts since1985 and I did not start Hapkido until almost 1989. I am a little behind you in time, but Iunderstand dedicating yourself into a way of life.


    As a point of information, I am a member of the Jungki Kwan, I teach Hapkido,not "Jungki Hapkido"... But I agree that there is plenty of video outthere that also makes me scratch my head.

    My bad. I thoughtJungki Kwan was the name of your school.

    Hopefully you would not "call out" anyone that did not deserve it -but if they have no true lineage in that art, hopefully you would feel the needto warn others.

    I try not to call out anyone publicly. I try to praise publicly. If Ihave issue with someone I make that a private matter. That has been my point. Do I think there is bad so called Hapkido?YES! Me calling a horses *** a horsesass on the World Wide Web makes the other arts that don’t respect us in the firstplace not respect us at all. I don’t meannot openly question them, I think questions are good and perhaps that is a wayof letting people know that we do not agree with what is going on withoutcoming right out and denouncing it.

    If you don't feel the need to be a watchdog for the art, so be it, that is nota requirement. Do you find it odd what you make in the last part of yourstatement? If its called Hapkido, it should....in reality...all be what similarif not the same?


    I have to disagree that all hapkido is the same. Sin Moo Hapkido looks different than JungkiHapkido. Combat Hapkido is a differentschool all together. So, I think thereare schools out there that look more like what Choi instructed. I think some look a little different. I thinkthere are schools that are a lot different. My Hapkido looks like what Master Berry andPark instructed but I also have some different variations because of my height difference. I alsolike to use indirect counters more than my masters sometimes.

    I agree that your idea is correct, but the art of Choi Dojunim changed andprogressed throughout his lifetime. And I say this to everyone - if they havenever actually seen Choi Dojunim's art, it is odd they think it needs modifyingor correcting.

    As I said above, I think fighting has changed in the 1990’sand early 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century. I agree,though, that most Hapkido Kwans are good and are useful. Prior to 1993 I worried about being kicked orpunched or maybe the high school wrestler trying to get me off my feet. Today, being shot in on by a wrestler is areal threat and being taken to the ground by a BJJ player is a real threat. Most of Hapkido works for such a thing but Ihad to modify my mind set.
    Today with the UFC and youtube you get guys that see howit is done and even never training in a formal martial art can learn some ofthe techniques.

    I don't know much about Judo, but next time you are in Scotland, go and meetTaekwondo IX Dan Rhee, Ki Ha. He might change your mind about TKD being forsport at all...not really his thing, and amazing exponent.

    I know Taekwondo is a real good martial art. My first master was was very traditional inthe way he instructed it. I do train the kids in the sport aspect of the artbut they also learn the true traditional part as well. I have several Korean and other Asian familiesenrolled at my Dojang because I teach true non-watered down Mudo.
    I would love to go to Scotland one day and if I ever do Iwould love to meet Master Rhee. I lovemeeting martial artist with same likes.

    Great post, Mr. Creech, but I believe that anyone that is involved in Hapkidoshould care about how the art is portrayed based on how other organizationsrank and include their lineage. Not a requirement, and teaching well is themost important thing, and teaching great self-defense really matters even morethan that, but there is no time to bury our heads in the sand and act likeanyone can say whatever they want about this art without being able to back itup.

    Thank you for answering my post and making me part of theforum. I think we have similar ideas onwhat Hapkido should be. I know I want itto be respected in the martial arts community and I feel that we are sometimesself-defeating. I have seen negativeposts, after negative posts on this forum and others downing some good martialartist and some not so good martial artist.
    I do have to say, I saw a post where you questioned(respectfully) “Instructor” on how he was issuing rank for his online program. For what it is worth, in my humble opinion, Ithought you handled that very well and I really respected how he answered yourquestions in return. That, I believe, ishow it should be done and perhaps what I am looking for.
    There is no requirement or license to be a martial artsinstructor in the USA. I personally donot like government involvement in my life but this makes no since to me. If I was a massage therapist, hair dresser,or a number of other things that require half the skills of a martial artist, Iwould have to be licensed by the State.
    We should be teaching people how to fight using deadlyforce if needed. If people are not teachingthe true way of any martial art, it could get someone really hurt or even killed.

    For what it is worth, that is my two cents.

     
  6. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2003
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Yes, I remember you commenting on this "program" and the response, but that does not mean we should accept these things as appropriate. And as you and I both believe, we should question them as much as we can!
     
  7. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2003
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    When I lived in the UK, I was present when schools were closed. It was pretty amazing.
     
  8. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2003
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    This is my opinion, and it will raise some hackles.

    First, we must all accept the origin of the art. We see nothing like this until Choi Dojunim started teaching, and he was very consistent his entire teaching career.
    We must establish a real hierarchy in the art. Yes, it might really get some people that have exaggerated about their rank annoyed, but it will start to bring some level of uniformity to the art.
    There also needs to be some frank discussion about what constitutes Hapkido, and what does not. That does not mean that some people might not add things they feel are helpful in fighting, but it is important that students understand what they are learning.
    How's that for a start?
     
  9. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2003
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chicago, IL

    There is a lot here, but I want to address just a few things.

    I don't believe all Hapkido is the same, most are good variants, but they often miss the mark rather badly.

    I am curious as to why you believe BJJ is a serious threat? Maybe it is regional, but here is Chicago, NO ONE would ever take anyone to the ground - on concrete, or in a bar...just not realistic. And stopping the take downs is rather easy for the most part. Just curious about that.

    My issue with the "live training" buzz word is that it appears - again appears - to make the only "good" training is that in MMA, and I would say that MMA is primarily for sport, not a realistic "Live" self defense system....

    And I will always maintain that we be watchdogs for the art, if we are not, no one else will. And now, as some of the older Korean's have passed away, creating a real hierarchy is getting harder.

    Anyway, again, good post.
     
  10. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    I beleive that I felt BJJ or MMA was a treat for two reasons before I went to a BJJ and MMA school and faced them and my fear. The BJJ schools here teach to take the fight to the ground even if it is a real street fight. Once you are on the gound, you are in their world. I am happy to say, that I have been off my feet only twice since 1997 while training in MMA or BJJ (once in 1998 and once a few months ago). Both times were by wrestlers and both times I had the tools I learned in BJJ to finish the fight on the ground. All other times however, I am able to stay on my feet and do the throwing using my Hapkido. Hapkido has great take down defense but nothing is ever for sure. I believe that I am only as strong as my weakest fighting range.

    It is true, BJJ leans to sport and MMA is a sport but they fight a resisting opponent (under rules, of course), but someone that is not use to people trying to really hurt then, rather it be sparring or a true fight is weak minded in my opinion. If one does not forge themselves in combat or at least simulated combat will not know how the body reacts when it is time for them to use their art. We call that reaction dynamics at MuSool Hapkido.

    When I say "live" training I mean going against someone that is really trying to punch you or choke you out. Not someone that is punching and stopping it an inch from the target. "Live" training does not have to mean sparring, however, I do enjoy doing different types of sparring.

    No will never hear me say that I think that there is another art that is better than true Hapkido on the street. You will hear me say that MMA, BJJ, Sport Taekwondo, or Sport Karate has an advantage because they do spar and train against resisting partners. That is why I spar. Sometimes it is throwing and ground; sometimes it is kicking, punching and throwing, sometimes it is just hands and other it is all four ranges. Sometimes we do drills to simulate the above. That is how you learn true timing. Yes, we have to set up rules and guidelines for safety but we still teach students true no rules hapkido when we are not "live" training or "sparring".

    I will leave being the watchdog up to you. Hapkido does not have a trademark and people are going to use it if they please because there is no hierarchy in our art. That is not our fault. The masters that came before us did not plan for such a thing like they did in some other arts. There are so many associations and federations that no one will ever get a grip on the true art vs what is not true. My goal will be to teach, what I feel is a true Hapkido and continue to spread it in a positive way. If I see something I totally do not agree with, I will mention it in a respectful way. If I really don't agree, I may send them a message telling them my stance on the subject, like I did when I saw one of my master's student's posting stuff that did not make the art look like our federations standard of Hapkiodo. At the end of the day; that is all I can do, because at the end of the day all it is, is an opinion.

    That there, is my opinion and my two cents. For all it is worth.
     
  11. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    You would see more masters in proper shape and fighting abilities would be much better then they are.
     
  12. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2003
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I certainly agree with you comments about live training, that is a very good summation.

    However, I have to ask you about this section.

    We do have a hierarchy, we use rank, its already there. But the question is, would people be ready to adhere to that hierarchy?

    How do you see "true" Hapkido?

    Good post
     
  13. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    Yes, we do have a hierarchy that is not supported by a true National Governing Body. I mean there are different Kwans and Federations that give rank. Some of the rank is more respected than others because of the federation or kwan it comes from. Taekwondo has the Kukkiwon and the World Taekwondo Federation issues or use to issue International Black Belts from there. Now I understand they broke into two groups so now you can get a Kukkiwon Certificate without a WTF certificate. Hapkido really doesn't have that. I mean some will argue that the Kido Hae is the National Governing Body but others would beg to differ.

    True Hapkido is not watered down, it hurts, it is hard yet it is soft. True hapkido is experenced! Before you know what has happened, you are on the ground tapping.

    That is my two cents.
     
  14. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2003
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I can't speak for Taekwondo, but the Kido Hae has not been a governing body since Choi Dojunim left them in the late 1960's, and the organization broke into smaller groups. World Kido is run by a 1st Dan, Korean Kido does not issue certification outside Korea, and the other numerous "kido" associations, at least 3 have no real standing in Hapkido.

    So, we are left with Choi Dojunim's hierarchy...his ranks and the way he issued them.
     
  15. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,419
    Likes Received:
    328
    Trophy Points:
    143
    It is interesting to note that in some arts, masters and students are generally in excellent shape even into advanced ages. Other arts, well...not so much. I feel it is a direct correlation as to the amount of physical training and conditioning that are emphasised.
     
  16. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    Master Park (my Grandmaster) is in his 70's and is in great shape, Master Berry (my Direct Master) is 52 and is in great shape, I am hitting 40 in December I train everyday. Master Park was ROK Special Forces and fought in Vietnam. Master Berry is retired US Naval Special Ops. If you ever do a class with either of these guys, you are going to work. Master Park lives two and half hours away from me and Master Berry lives an hour and a half from me. They both instilled personal fitness in both my Taekwondo and Hapkido training so I train every day. Not teach, TRAIN! There is a difference. The BJJ school I go to from time to time, that instructor is really fit as well.


    About a year and a half ago, Master Park (my Grandmaster) came back States side and re-opened his Dojang here in Tampa, Florida. All the Master's and Grandmasters that are under him showed up. Me and Master Berry were amaized how some of these Masters were so out of Shape. These were the guys I looked up to as a kid. I guess when the Master is away, the students won't train.

    It is in my humble opinion as Martial Arts Masters and Instructors, you need to look the part. You do not have to be 5% body fat but you should look like you actually train. You know, look the part of a Martial Artist. I allow my self 10 pounds. If I go over my target weight by 10 pounds, it is time to start my healthy habits.

    Just my two cents.
     
  17. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2003
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    To bad that conditioning does not equally equate to good Hapkido....
     
  18. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    17,276
    Likes Received:
    4,190
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    This isn't a difference between arts so much as a difference between schools or individuals.
    All arts encourage us to be in the best condition possible.
     
  19. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    I can agree with that. I see some great Hapkidoin in great shape; and then like in my example above some, not so much. Same goes with Taekwondo, Judo, Karate, etc.

    I have to agree with Mister Sogor, you do not have to be in the best shape to have good Hapkido. However two guys in a fight with the same skills, the one in better shape will most likely win the fight.

    All things being equal or not being equal for that matter, I want to be in shape if I ever have to use my art. I want my students to be in shape and look like they train. Plus, I want them to have the skills that they look like they have.

    Just my thought on the matter for what it is worth.
     
  20. bushido

    bushido Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    lol, the one with the lesses scruples will win ;)

    Sight, breath and mobility...these are our targets. Take away any one of those, and there is no fight.
    Strike first, don't stop...every strike like it is the only strike, every strike to one of the three targets.

    HKD is an art of deception...from the way we stand, to the way we move our body to decieve when striking and moving. Strike with out wind up, cover the opponents sight when striking, move with out the up and down motion of some one moving. The first strike you learn is a sucker shot. (Back of the live hand to the plane of the skull)
    First and fore most, we are fighters...after the fight, we are martial artists again ;)

    You can be cival and fight honorably...But I will not ;)123
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

bujinkan in martinsburg wv