Differences between HKD and Kuk Sool

[jwreck]

I've read a few places that Kuk Sool Won is merely repackaged HKD with a new name. A first, I was offended (Kuk Sool being my art of choice), then that gave way to mostly confusion. I can see some similarities, but not really. I studied HKD in Washington State but quit after two months because it seemed so limited. There were no kicks above the waist, and there were really very few strikes at all. Kuk Sool has a large arsenal of strikes as well as locks and throws. I've also read that HKD has basically all the kicks of TKD, so maybe the school I went to for HKD was some bastardized version? Anyway, I'd like to get your thoughts.

 

[jwreck]

Anyone?

 

[fringe_dweller]

Would love to help but I really don't know.

Bruce is a bit of a historian - I'm sure he could enlighten you as to the differences.

Grant

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jwreck:

Answering your question in any kind of respectful detail would fill-up a whole lot more bandwidth than I think would be allowed here. However, let me give you some thoughts and maybe we can trade things back and forth to get you the information that you need. here are some things to consider.

1.) Korea after WW II wanted to identify a martial history or martial science around which to rally the citizenry of the time. Returning Ex-pats from around the Pacific Rim brought back their experiences and the single most organized was the MA of Japan. Many folks tried to form various amalgams of less organized Korean traditions from before WW II with the post WW II Japanese traditions with an eye towards forming a definitive national martial science. In their turn TKD, TSD, HKD, Kumdo and Kyudo all had their advocates for identifying their particular favorite as the premier Korean art.

2.) In Hapkido there were many sub-groups who stirred together various mixes of technical skills. Coming from Choi you can generally split into two factions--- Early Choi and Late Choi.

3.) Early Choi saw a huge effort to get the Hapkido arts to be a representative balance of grappling, kicking and striking. The more Japanese side represented by Ji Han Jae and Moo Woong Kim essentially mixed ju-jutsu (K. yu sool) with Taekyon and gave us what we have today. The more Korean/Chinese side represented by Joo Bang Lee and In Hyuk Suh gave us the Hwa Rang Do and Kuk Sool Won of today.

4.) Late Choi saw a commitment to not mixing in material from other sources but rather in keeping things as much like Choi would like to have kept things. Kim, Yung Su and Lim Hyun-su are two good representatives of this lineage.

5.) You asked about the difference between HwaRangDo and Kuk Sool Won and I must say that the single biggest similarity between the two arts is how hard each works to represent itself as disimilar from everybody else. This comes from the fact that early-on there was only room for one person at the top of the representative KMA pyramid and the people we are talking about were too short-sighted and immature to agree on who that person would be. The result was a falling out and each personality cooking-up some authority to validate their claim to fame. For instance, for years Joo Bang Lee told everyone that he was the 59th GM of a HwaRang lineage.

6.) In actual execution there has been a lot of work put into making things as different as possible. Each art has developed its own hyung or borrowed from places they would rather not talk about. Long stances and short stances come and go, as do emphasis on "Ki" or not. But motive, however, is not to produce a better art but rather to make sure that people see distinct differences between organizations so that there is less chance of membership erosion. Afterall if you learn to do a wrist-throw in a long stance that will mark you if you go to another school, yes?
Hope this has been of some help.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

I am not sure if anyone wants to keep this string going or not. If there is still some interest in comparing and contrasting HRD with KSW I am wondering if anyone knows of a decent resource for the HRD hyung. GM Suh published his Red Book some years back and there is now a two volume set with black covers available through an ad in the TKD TIMES. However, I have not seen any comparable published material out of GM Joo Bang Lee since the three book set published back in the 1970-s. Perhaps someone could offer a comment on the more recent tapes, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[jwreck]

I appreciate the reply Bruce, and yes, that was informative. I was actually asking about Hapkido and KSW though...I did figure it was mostly based in a "my style is better" competition type argument that led to many styles that are "different" but virtually the same.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

From my experience even in the Hapkido community there are major differances in the different organizations.

1. Direct Choi, Yong Sool influnced.

2. GM Ji, Han Jae influenced. HRD, KSW are from this lineage.

3. Combination of many arts, not really Hapkido.

Some groups place more emphasis on kicking and others very little!

Some groups place more emphasis in alternative weapons, gun, Arnis type stick exct.


Just some thoughts

Todd M.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

How do you feel about having less emphasis on the kicking in GM Lims' curriculum as compared with, say, GM Jis' Sin Moo Hapkido? Do you ever push the edge of the envelope and encourage your students to do more kicking over and above the material you train in from GM Lim? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

GM Lim and the Jungki Kwan teach many kicking techniques, all you need to do is askjavascript:smilie('') I have always been very interested in the art of kicking, using the legs to strike, joint lock, block and off - balence. From what I can gather Doju Nim Choi, Yong Sool practiced and used frequently. He did not really teach in the sense demonstrating a kick and then asking his students to perform the kick. He used the kicks in and with his technique, really inseparable, just movement and balence.

In Korea kicking is a part of there upbringing so not as much time is needed by the time they get to Hapkido.

Peace

Todd Miller
smile

 

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Todd. That helps clear things up for me a bit. The other question that comes to mind is the relationship with DRAJJ.

(NOTE: I really don't want to start a discussion on any historical relationship between Choi and DRAJJ.)

What I am asking about is the similarity in the material in GM Lims' curriculum and DRAJJ. The question comes to mind that if the material between these two arts is so close or at least approximates each other, why not just move closer to DRAJJ and network with one of the three or four main schools of that art? Have you found an advantage to connecting through a Korean interpretation of such material over simply studying the DRAJJ art itself? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

What I am asking about is the similarity in the material in GM Lims' curriculum and DRAJJ. The
question comes to mind that if the material between these two arts is so close or at least
approximates each other, why not just move closer to DRAJJ and network with one of the three or
four main schools of that art? Have you found an advantage to connecting through a Korean
interpretation of such material over simply studying the DRAJJ art itself? Thoughts?

There are differances in the two arts and from what I can see they are mostly cultural. I have only seen a few DRAJJ schools and there are many similarities in what happens to opponent.

I have always liked the Korean frame of mind and have never seen ANYONE anywhere close to GM Lim, Hwe Jung Nim, Chief Master Lim, Master Shin just to name a few of the Jungki Kwan Masters. I also like the way GM Lim teaches Hapkido through Guhapdo/Kumdo and vice versa. It is like they are all a part of the classical Mudoin.

Take care
Todd Miller

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

Good points, all. I especially liked the emphasis on how there is a cadre of folks who have gathered around a particular view and have maintained a high level of quality where that is concerned. To my way of thinking that, more than anything else, is the sign of a sound and healthy lineage built around a sound and healthy approach.

For myself, I still have problems with the mixture of Japanese and Korean sword material. I know that the Japanese and Koreans have been mixing things for generations. Some part of me still wishes that the sword that GM Lim promotes contained a higher % of Korean tradition rather than Japanese. There is a sadness that I feel to think that such traditions don't get every possible support from their own culture, but thats just one persons' opinion from over here in the US.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

GM Lim studied Kumdo long before he studied Guhapdo/Iaido. The fact is that old day thought is to study from the best whatever country or state they are from. I think this is what GM Lim has done dealing with Komei Sekkiguchi Sensei.

Chung SuK Guhapdo (Blue Stone quick display sword}. GM Lim has studied Korean & Japanese technique in order to give him understanding of both approaches. Both his Hapkido & Guhapdo are Uniquely Korean in tradition. Developement through dilligent learning is wisdom in my opinion.

Take care
Todd Miller

 

[jwreck]

Well then let me ask this, why such a disparity in schools? As I said before, in the Hapkido school I attended briefly, I was greatly admonished for kicking above the waist during sparring, yet more often than not I read things about the versatile kicking style in Hapkido? WTF?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

See, now thats where I begin to have a problem. Just exactly who is it that draws the line and where is it drawn?

If we had been talking among a group of Western practitioners and they espoused a position such as "taking the best" from a number of sources, some traditionalist such as myself would come along and ask what loyalty or fealty did said person owe to his culture?

Let's look at the score so far.

1.) Choi returns from Japan with skills that he didn't have when he left at the age of ten. He claims to have studied under Takeda but does nothing to honor his teacher/student bond with his reported teacher. Instead he is honored as having started his own martial tradition.

2.) A number of students who studied under Choi went on to start their own organizations and traditions. They acknowledge a connection with Choi for authenticity's sake, but only identify themselves as the heads of their respective lines.

3.) There are three major Hapkido organizations (IHF, KHF, and the Kidohae) all of whom report promoting curriculums that trace back to Choi for authenticity, but none of which pay any funds to the Choi family.

4.) We now have GM Lim who reports a direct lineage from Choi and has a cadre of practitioners to support him as well, but he is not above borrowing from Japanese traditions to "improve-on" his own material.

You know, Todd, a guy could be forgiven for thinking that it is hypocrisy not neo-confucianism that drives the Hapkido world. When it comes to telling people how to pay fealty to their seniors, the Koreans seem to have written the book, letter and verse. But when it comes to "honoring" their place in the system or safe-guarding the integrity of the traditions, then the book goes out the window.

I think I can hold my own pretty well in a fight, so I am not so awful sure I need a person to tell me how to do that. I also think I use a sword pretty well though in Gods' own truth I don't know when I will ever have a need to demonstrate that prowess in mortal combat with a live blade. What I can always use more of is a bit more "Soul" in what I do and for that I expect the Koreans, Westerners, aborigines and anyone else who is interested to invest themselves to define the very heart of things.

GM Lim is coming to Chicago and I for one would like to attend his presentation. What I am here to tell you is that I don't need someone to show me how to execute a technique against great resistance, how to crank harder, sweat more or condition myself with greater e'lan. The chances of my having to use my skills in a true life and death encounter are slim and none and even if the opportunity comes up my skills are sufficient to get the job done without doing time for manslaughter. What I do need is someone who is invested in 1,000 years of martial science to spill his guts about those traditions so that we can pass things on accurately to the next generation when the time comes. Otherwise, what I am hearing people report might as easily be said about any competent gym instructor. Now is GM Lim going to teach Korean tradition or is this going to be just one more Korean giving his particular take on what he thinks Korean traditions are "supposed to be".

:soapbox:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

A few thoughts:

What is Korean Sword Tradition? NONE. The Koreans never had a sword culture - niether did the Chinese. Only the Japanese, and only in the last 300 years or so has it been codified as a training tradition without the threat of constant war.

Bruce, the Korean Sword tradition you are looking for does not exist - except maybe in the mind of a few Koreans who created it themselves of claim to study it from old books. If a westerner said they had learned some stuff from a poorly diagramed book, he would be ridiculed. If the Koreans learned Japanese sword tradition from the older fighting schools, be glad, especially if they then took those traditions and worked them into their own lexicon of technique.

As for the connection of Hapkido and DRAJJ - that is simple for those of us that believe the story of Choi, Yong Sul - he studied under Takeda longer than anyone and learned the whole syllabus - more than anyone has ever claimed - now, considering that Takeda named and codified DRAJJ himself (it therefore did not exist in that form before him), why should Hapkido feel obligated to the DRAJJ orgs. in Japan? Choi did honor his teacher by claiming him (always) but changed the name of what he taught to not offend Korean sensibilities about the recently ousted Japanese.

Now, about the DRAJJ in Japan - they cannot even define their own criteria for who is in charge - so why get involved in that mess? In addition, since Choi was the only one to learn the whole system, why are the Japanese not running to Deagu for proper instruction?

Bruce, you need to get the real story of the Kidohae and the other Hapkido organizations to know who is paying what to whom - considering you will be hard pressed to find any Choi kin alive - except possibly his daughter in law. And by the true story I mean the one other that told by the likes of the Suh/Seo family who have a real problem with the REAL story.

Hapkido comes from Choi, Yong Sul, not a non-existant Korean Royal Court instructor, or a telepathic Grandma - all these men have a single common thread, Choi, Yong Sul. More than that, an even more potent thread that none of this stuff appears in Korea before Choi taught it widespread - and there are no other common bonds that these instructors share.

Bruce, you continue to call for "Korean-ness" of technique - then say we ignore the Chinese stuff - confusing. Again, the very fact that an instructor who is Korean incorporates other cultural ideas into their repetoire begs the question - does that make them Korean - if not then how long does it take?

Hey, since all this started in India why not call it all a curry and be done?

Always good to talk to you Bruce - you do keep me thinking!!

Kevin Sogor

 

[Chris from CT]

Hi Bruce.

Originally posted by glad2bhere
4.) We now have GM Lim who reports a direct lineage from Choi and has a cadre of practitioners to support him as well, but he is not above borrowing from Japanese traditions to "improve-on" his own material.

Choi, Yong-Sul borrowed the whole thing!

Many of Choi's students (such as Suh, Bok-Sub, Ji Han-Jae, Lim, Hyun-Su, Rim Jong-Bae, etc.) have said that Choi, Yong Sul knew nothing about martial arts before being in Japan and it was there he learned a Japanese martial art, whether or not it was DRAJJ.

Originally posted by glad2bhere
When it comes to telling people how to pay fealty to their seniors, the Koreans seem to have written the book, letter and verse. But when it comes to "honoring" their place in the system or safe-guarding the integrity of the traditions, then the book goes out the window.

I have been told that one of Choi, Yong-Sul’s major goals was to have Hapkido unified. Unfortunately, everyone has their own way of doing it. Some are aggressive in their ways such as the KHF while others, like GM Lim, just teaches what was passed down to him and builds relationships.

Originally posted by glad2bhere
What I am here to tell you is that I don't need someone to show me how to execute a technique against great resistance...

But wouldn't it be nice to grow and learn how to make our existing techniques even more efficient so as we get older and our strength decreases we can still apply our techniques with great efficiency?

I remember reading on the Dojang Digest about the benefits and downfalls of getting older in the martial arts. “Fight smarter, not harder” was something I took out of that thread. This is something that I personally have found with GM Lim’s teachings. In the past, I was using too much strength and had to depend on my partner knowing what I was going to do to them to make it effective or they would be broken. This hasn’t been the case since learning Jung Ki Hapkido. The principles that I have learned have made my techniques so much stronger while at the same time exerting ¼ of the strength that was needed previously and it no longer matters if the opponent knows what’s coming or not. I knew hundreds of techniques, but it really is the principles that make a “good technique” into a “great technique.” If you want to work hard and grow, which I am sure you do, I would recommend you go to the seminar. No matter where someone is in their Hapkido training, there will be something to benefit from going.

Originally posted by glad2bhere
The chances of my having to use my skills in a true life and death encounter are slim and none and even if the opportunity comes up my skills are sufficient to get the job done without doing time for manslaughter.

With what I just said above about the principles, let me add that they also up your options as far as levels of force. The “off balancing” that I have learned is one of the things that allows me to apply a technique on a resistant opponent (as in the case of a real attack) to take down and restrain without the added level of force that comes from striking. Coming from years of dealing with “toxically enhanced dumb-dumbs,” let me say that some people have to be hit especially hard to have any affect if any. The off balancing principles in Jung Ki Hapkido apply to anybody who was meant to have two arms, two legs and a head on top (or up their behinds) no matter what is surging through their systems.

Originally posted by glad2bhere
What I do need is someone who is invested in 1,000 years of martial science to spill his guts about those traditions so that we can pass things on accurately to the next generation when the time comes. Otherwise, what I am hearing people report might as easily be said about any competent gym instructor. Now is GM Lim going to teach Korean tradition or is this going to be just one more Korean giving his particular take on what he thinks Korean traditions are "supposed to be".

He will teach you what he learned from Choi, Yong-Sul. So what is the difference from Choi, Yong-Sul teaching Korean traditions of Hapkido or GM Lim, besides one generation? What Choi learned and what GM Lim teaches came from a Japanese art. So it really depends on your definition of “Korean traditions.”

If you want to learn some excellent technique from a good man who has spent many years with the founder of Hapkido, Choi, Yong-Sul, then you will enjoy it immensely. If you want something that is strictly Korean, then you have your work cut out for you, no matter where you go in Hapkido.


Take care Bruce. :asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin and Chris:

Well, you can't say things don't stay lively here!

Let me try this in another way.

The Koreans' DO have a sword tradition, but do NOT have a sword culture in the sense that the Japanese developed. What I mean is that the Koreans do have sword methods. Some of those methods they borrowed from the Japanese and some from the Chinese. Some they sorta modified for themselves. This process has been going on for generations and I think needs to be respected. That doesn't mean that they developed a CLASS such as the Samurai in Japan but they DO have a system of sword use and technique. The MYTBTJ may have been heavily borrowed from Chinese and Japanese traditions but the motive for taking what was taken, and the decision on how that material would be used was very much Korean--- by Koreans. I don't fault GM Lim for continuing the process into this generation. What I would like to see is considerably more emphasis on what has gone before, such that it is not lost, and then new material added a bit at a time so that students can see what is fundamentally Korean and what is being added and why. This is the same in the MYTBTJ where the authors identify what comes from where instead of just tossing it all together like a stew.

As far as the Chinese influence, I know I have said this before but it bears saying one more time. The only reason that I advocate so strongly for recognition of Chinese influences is that the Japanese influences are so strong, so recent and so pervasive. It would be a mistake, I think to go wholely the other direction and only focus on Chinese traditions and ignore the Japanese influences. I CERTAINLY do NOT advocate making things up like the Kuk Sool Won people have done or as in the case of the HwaRangDo group! And while we are at it lets not forget the indigenous Korean practices such as Taek Kyon and Ssireum. I am not saying that we need to focus exclusively on these arts but lets admit to their influences and keep them safe in the transmissions of traditions.

I just had a thought as I was getting ready to close this thread off, and this is more for folks who may not know me as do you, Kevin and Chris. Some people might think that I am being just a bit disrespectful to GM Lim in one way or another. For those lurking around the edges let me tell you that no arrogance or disrespect is intended and that I heartily encourage people to attend GM Lims seminars when he gets here in the Spring. What I hope to do in my writing is get people to do the very things that informed individuals are always pressing the KMA community to do. Ask questions--- require facts and documentation-----don't take "no" for an answer. I can take such a pro-active approach because I can use my years of experience to ask questions some gueppie lurking in the background is thinking, but afraid to ask.

People with facts and experience at hand will respond and information will be broadcast. Fakes and frauds will pull away and give excuses. In both cases the KMA will be better for each camp being revealed for what it is. FWIW.

Best Wishes, (and a Happy New Year)

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

The Korean sword styles we see today are heavily influenced by the Japanese and Chinese. Take a look at some other Korean arts such as Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo, Kumdo, Kuk Sool Won, Hwarang Do, I could go on. They are all influenced by each other. The sword culture we see today is each group's take on it.

The main thing to remember is hard consistant training is where greatness and intuition come from, not a secret Japanese, Chinese or Korean tradition.

I think we all agree. Where just saying it differantly.

Take care
Todd M.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

You are 100% right about the hard consistent training. With so many rationales given to do things in a half-spirited, haphazard fashion it is always a golden opportunity to train with dedication.
I'm looking forward to the Spring Seminar. I just wish I would have been able to "follow" GM Lim back to the East Coast. Sounds like you folks are going to have a particularly fine time for the balance of the week!

The only other point that I would stress is some need to continue to press for the integrity of the Korean arts as they have been defined. By this I mean that I get thoroughly disgusted with folks who routinely drag material from other places into their training curriculum. Okinawan and Japanese staff, nunchukas, sai, BJJ and a lot more has shown up in TKD and HKD schools. Its not that I have an issue with polishing or expanding ones' abilities. Its the representation of such material as somehow "traditional KMA" that bothers me. Certainly we can have a lively discussion on what constitutes "traditional", but I think everyone would agree that when someone starts using BJJ terminology to instruct in ground-fighting technique one needs to draw a line. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce