who actually thinks you can punch someone on top of you.

[Xue Sheng]

Well just FYI, I do know that a strike doesn't need to just be closed fists or kicks. I did do JMA which includes many unorthodox striking techniques. One of the strikes in Bjj is the head butt after all.

That said, I think part of the issue here is theory versus application. The reason I agree so much with Drop Bear is that we come from similar perspectives. If someone tells me that x is effective, I need to see x being used on a semi-regular basis in some form of fighting. One thing I notice about CMA is that it uses a lot of theory and concepts, but I see little of those concepts being used on a regular basis anywhere, even in Chinese-based MMA or Chinese street fighting where CMA is being applied. So when you told me to look into "Faijin", I pulled up this video;

And I simply find stuff like that to be suspect, because not only does it look incredible, but I've never seen it applied in an uncontrolled environment. You would think something like that would be used constantly, and anyone utilizing such skills would be dominating in fighting contests, or people who wanted to dominate in such contests would be falling over themselves to learn those concepts. The fact that no one has casts doubts on their validity.

Again, simply a difference of perspectives. I think that is the root of the disagreement here. Sort of a science vs religion sort of thing I suppose. No disrespect to anything you do Xue. I'm simply a bit skeptical at stuff like that in the vid.

Then you have been talking to the wrong CMA people, and I have no control over that at all.

Of course I suppose now that video is supposed to be proof of how misguided I am..... and I am glad you find is suspect, I do too...not fajin, that's a show. You see videos on YouTube are put there by people that generally want to make themselves look good or make others look bad to those that do not know any better, They are looking for magic and fantasy and since CMA tends to not go around yelling how great it is, or challenge those that do..it is easy to post all sorts of ridiculousness and call it fajin, or no touch knockout or good CMA for that matter when it really is not....which is why I rarely take them as proof of anything.

Now to fajin: Seen it applied, felt it applied, applied it and it works rather well, but it is not something you can pick up quickly or from a video, it is not magic, it is mechanics, that is all, and if you want to at least see a good example of what it look like look to Chen Xiaowang videos, I doubt you will think it is of use and no insult intended, but I doubt you will understand it either. And to be honest I doubt you intentions in continuing this conversation at all.

Looking at a video is not going to help you understand it and like I said, I am not going to teach anyone over the internet so if you do not want to believe it and go with Drop Bear, be my guest.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am calm

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Here is 1 of several posts from Hanz

There is not a single word in that post claiming that you can't strike effectively on the ground or that you can't effectively strike someone whose head is higher than yours.

 

[ballen0351]

There is not a single word in that post claiming that you can't strike effectively on the ground or that you can't effectively strike someone whose head is higher than yours.

Huh? Did you even read it?

don't rely on desperation tactics like trying to punch someone in the head who is sitting on your chest. Why shouldn't you rely on such tactics? Because they're not effective.

The very last sentence says "they (strikes to the head) are not effective"

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Huh? Did you even read it?



The very last sentence says "they (strikes to the head) are not effective"

Yep, I read it. It doesn't appear that you did.

The last sentence reads "they're not effective." The antecedent for "they" is not "strikes to the head" or "strikes to the head while on the ground" or "strikes to the head when that head is higher than yours." The antecedent is "punches to the head of someone who is sitting on your chest." Big difference there.

There are a ton of different positions where you are on the ground and your opponent's head is higher than yours. Only a small percentage of them involve someone sitting on your chest.

 

[Hanzou]

Then you have been talking to the wrong CMA people, and I have no control over that at all.

Of course I suppose now that video is supposed to be proof of how misguided I am..... and I am glad you find is suspect, I do too...not fajin, that's a show. You see videos on YouTube are put there by people that generally want to make themselves look good or make others look bad to those that do not know any better, they are looking for magic and fantasy and since CMA tends to not go around yelling how great it is, or challenge those that do..it is easy to post all sorts of ridiculousness and call it fajin, or no touch knockout or good CMA for that matter when it really is not....which is why I rarely take them as proof of anything.

Now to fajin: Seen it applied, felt it applied, applied it and it works rather well, but it is not something you can pick up quickly or from a video, it is not magic, it is mechanics, that is all, and if you want to at least see a good example of what it look like look to Chen Xiaowang videos, I doubt you will think it is of use and no insult intended, but I doubt you will understand it either. And to be honest I doubt you intentions in continuing this conversation at all.

Looking at a video is not going to help you understand it and like I said, I am not going to teach anyone over the internet so if you do not want to believe it and go with Drop Bear, be my guest.

Where did I say you're misguided? I'm simply pointing out that the Fajin there didn't look very realistic. I also checked out a few demos of Chen Xiaowang, and frankly its exactly that; demos. I find it a bit hard to believe that none of his students or pupils ever decided to use his teachings to become professional fighters in their own right, or that you hear much of Fajin outside of CMA circles.

Anyway as I said before, we simply come from two very different perspectives. I need to see something working on a non-compliant partner before I believe its a valid concept. I don't feel that that's a lack of understanding, but instead a very healthy dose of skepticism.

 

[ballen0351]

Yep, I read it. It doesn't appear that you did.

The last sentence reads "they're not effective." The antecedent for "they" is not "strikes to the head" or "strikes to the head while on the ground" or "strikes to the head when that head is higher than yours." The antecedent is "punches to the head of someone who is sitting on your chest." Big difference there.

There are a ton of different positions where you are on the ground and your opponent's head is higher than yours. Only a small percentage of them involve someone sitting on your chest.

See now your being a clown so you want to play stupid games you can play with yourself

 

[Tony Dismukes]

See now your being a clown so you want to play stupid games you can play with yourself

Stupid games such as reading what was actually written and asking people what they actually meant rather than inventing straw man positions to project on other people and argue against? I was rather hoping that was a game everybody could play along with.

At this point I'm genuinely having a hard time understanding where you are coming from. It's as if Hanzou said "Swedish is not the primary language of people in Portugal" and you were to proclaim "Hanzou says that no one in Europe speaks Swedish!". Portugal is a country in Europe, but it's not all of Europe. Bottom of mount is a position on the ground where someone's head is higher than yours, but it's no more reflective of all such positions than Portugal is reflective of all Europe.

You know, it's entirely possible to disagree with someone without inventing words to put in their mouth and then getting angry when they point out that those aren't their positions.

 

[jks9199]

Folks,
Let's please try to keep things civil. I'm seeing heat and tension rising, and I hope that won't lead anyone into something that violates the rules...

 

[drop bear]

ahh. but I do, however you do not.... but this is now getting rather childish so you continue to rail at windmills if you like, but I see no further reason to allow you to waste my time.

You have not made one specific point. So I really don't think you understand this discussion. The best you have done is other methods. Which was a waste of your time because it doesn't really say anything.

Do you spend much time fighting out of mount or side control?

 

[ballen0351]

Stupid games such as reading what was actually written and asking people what they actually meant rather than inventing straw man positions to project on other people and argue against? I was rather hoping that was a game everybody could play along with.

At this point I'm genuinely having a hard time understanding where you are coming from. It's as if Hanzou said "Swedish is not the primary language of people in Portugal" and you were to proclaim "Hanzou says that no one in Europe speaks Swedish!". Portugal is a country in Europe, but it's not all of Europe. Bottom of mount is a position on the ground where someone's head is higher than yours, but it's no more reflective of all such positions than Portugal is reflective of all Europe.

You know, it's entirely possible to disagree with someone without inventing words to put in their mouth and then getting angry when they point out that those aren't their positions.

Dude if your not man enough to say you are wrong that is cool. I expect nothing less from the bjj mafia anyway. You boys have fun playing with yourselves

 

[drop bear]

I don't even do bjj by the way.

I do other methods.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Where did I say you're misguided? I'm simply pointing out that the Fajin there didn't look very realistic. I also checked out a few demos of Chen Xiaowang, and frankly its exactly that; demos. I find it a bit hard to believe that none of his students or pupils ever decided to use his teachings to become professional fighters in their own right, or that you hear much of Fajin outside of CMA circles.

Anyway as I said before, we simply come from two very different perspectives. I need to see something working on a non-compliant partner before I believe its a valid concept. I don't feel that that's a lack of understanding, but instead a very healthy dose of skepticism.

Well I was right after all.... this is pretty much exactly where I thought you would go with this.... You really need to read Sun Si Bing Fa and then try and understand it.

You know nothing of my training but yet you assume you do.... predictable

Have a nice day

 

[Xue Sheng]

You have not made one specific point. So I really don't think you understand this discussion. The best you have done is other methods. Which was a waste of your time because it doesn't really say anything.

Do you spend much time fighting out of mount or side control?

Again what you think does not matter to me at all

Are you able to read and comprehend what others write... because that question shows that you don't.

Now I really have wasted to much time on you....You have a nice day too

 

[Argus]

Where did I say you're misguided? I'm simply pointing out that the Fajin there didn't look very realistic. I also checked out a few demos of Chen Xiaowang, and frankly its exactly that; demos. I find it a bit hard to believe that none of his students or pupils ever decided to use his teachings to become professional fighters in their own right, or that you hear much of Fajin outside of CMA circles.

Anyway as I said before, we simply come from two very different perspectives. I need to see something working on a non-compliant partner before I believe its a valid concept. I don't feel that that's a lack of understanding, but instead a very healthy dose of skepticism.

I trained with a Xingyi guy who was able to employ it astonishingly well. And it's not as if fajin is something unfamiliar to me in Wing Chun, nor was this just some demonstration. What I mean is, he was able to generate a lot of power with an astonishingly small amount of movement even in sparring and free play, against a resisting, noncompliant partner (ie, me!).

So, yeah. I don't need a youtube video for proof. Some of those Xingyi guys know their stuff!

 

[Hanzou]

I trained with a Xingyi guy who was able to employ it astonishingly well. And it's not as if fajin is something unfamiliar to me in Wing Chun, nor was this just some demonstration. What I mean is, he was able to generate a lot of power with an astonishingly small amount of movement even in sparring and free play, against a resisting, noncompliant partner (ie, me!).

So, yeah. I don't need a youtube video for proof. Some of those Xingyi guys know their stuff!

Unfortunately, Anecdotal evidence means little to nothing. It's no better than saying that you arm-barred a Yeti in Malibu.

The simple truth is if this ability was possible, you would see someone utilize it in a professional manner somewhere. It wouldn't be utilized by some shadowy Kung Fu master somewhere. If something is real and effective, and would give someone an edge, you would see it everywhere. The fact that it's nowhere to be seen, even in Chinese MMA is quite telling.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I trained with a Xingyi guy who was able to employ it astonishingly well. And it's not as if fajin is something unfamiliar to me in Wing Chun, nor was this just some demonstration. What I mean is, he was able to generate a lot of power with an astonishingly small amount of movement even in sparring and free play, against a resisting, noncompliant partner (ie, me!).

So, yeah. I don't need a youtube video for proof. Some of those Xingyi guys know their stuff!

Yup, was a xingyi guy, it is my favorite of all styles I have trained and some of those guy hit damn hard, and they are fast and aggressive too.

 

[drop bear]

Again what you think does not matter to me at all

Are you able to read and comprehend what others write... because that question shows that you don't.

Now I really have wasted to much time on you....You have a nice day too

Yeah. I can comprehend evasive answers. And trying to troll rather than discuss what could have been a normal technical discussion without people throwing their egos around.

I mean I can disagree with people on a technique. I explain how my point works they explain theirs. And nobody has to resort to "other methods" secret mystery's that nobody gets details about. And upset rage quitting.

I train in an environment where everything is up front and open. Failure happens people are humble enough to learn from that regardless of how long they have trained. It opens up an understanding of martial arts rather than keeps this darkness and miss conceptions going.

And there is a wonder why people have turned away from traditional methods that can only be explained by "other methods" and "I don't waste my time" explaining a process to here it is this is how it works. This is why it works and you may or may not get away with this if the other guy is fighting back.

I mean you cant post honestly if you don't care about other peoples opinion. That is the ultimate waste of time.

 

[drop bear]

Unfortunately, Anecdotal evidence means little to nothing. It's no better than saying that you arm-barred a Yeti in Malibu.

The simple truth is if this ability was possible, you would see someone utilize it in a professional manner somewhere. It wouldn't be utilized by some shadowy Kung Fu master somewhere. If something is real and effective, and would give someone an edge, you would see it everywhere. The fact that it's nowhere to be seen, even in Chinese MMA is quite telling.

If that is representative of fajin and its concepts. Then it is not far removed from basic hitting concepts. Where you are using relaxed explosion and body alignment over ogre strength.

Ok he is not moving the bag. But you can whip punch things without a heap of travelling force.

 

[Argus]

Unfortunately, Anecdotal evidence means little to nothing. It's no better than saying that you arm-barred a Yeti in Malibu.

The simple truth is if this ability was possible, you would see someone utilize it in a professional manner somewhere. It wouldn't be utilized by some shadowy Kung Fu master somewhere. If something is real and effective, and would give someone an edge, you would see it everywhere. The fact that it's nowhere to be seen, even in Chinese MMA is quite telling.

Anecdotal evidence? Sure. But I'm not writing and defending a paper. Rather, I was indirectly suggesting that you might want to go get some experience for yourself before making claims about things you're completely ignorant of. If I started rambling on about ground fighting, which I'm entirely ignorant of, drawing conclusions and calling BS, I would expect you to put me in my place. Why do you think you can judge components of martial arts which you're entirely ignorant of, and don't even have a working definition, or understanding of to begin with?

I'm sure there are people using fajin in MMA. In fact, there's a Taichi instructor who spoke about fajin being present in boxing, among other arts that he also practiced in a sports context.

But, even the premise that there's nobody using a straight up CMA approach to fajin in MMA is flat out assumption on your part. I'm sure there's a small number of people who have invested the time into these TMA's as well as MMA, are competent in both, and utilize it in competitions. But that's going to be a small minority, simply because most people who are interested in competing in MMA are going to train arts that cater more to that goal. Why would you expect them to invest years into some internal CMA? It might help them, but it's not essential, so you can't argue that "if there were any merit, it'd be everywhere."

Your posts are filled with far too many straw-man arguments and assumptions. Someone says "X can be used here," and you generalize and exaggerate X, and then ask why it's not used everywhere if it's of any value. There are so many holes in that logic, I don't even know where to begin...