Where do we draw the line?

[ShaneLayton]

Don,

You said exactly what I was trying to say, only much better. Part of being a good uke is attacking well, and delivering the specified attack as perfectly as possible (just my opinion). The other part is dying well :duel: .

As for resisting or showing Tori's suki, I think that in the beginning, when learning a technique for the first time then Tori should concentrate on the mechanics of the waza. Tori needs to made aware of his suki and how to eliminate or reduce it, of course, and it needs to probably happen within the same lesson. Just not the very first time.

 

[Kreth]

I think it depends on who I'm working with. If I'm working with a beginner, I will generally be fairly compliant the first few times, to let them get a feel for the technique, then gradually add resistance as they gain more confidence with what they're doing. With someone more advanced, I will respond normally based on what they're doing. Note that in neither case am I talking about actively fighting their technique, just providing a normal level of resistance.

Jeff

 

[Shogun]

I think when learning a technique for the first time, the compliance should be very high. even for experienced guys. then, like you were saying, get more and more resistant. I like the idea of static resistance. basically, you just react to what your tori is doing, but give them something to work with.

No one like playing with a flat football.

 

[Cryozombie]

Right? Like, I am working on the concept of counters now, and the cool thing is, that when I am applying a technique, like say from the Kihon Happo, and the Uke makes it "not work" it really helps me look at where I need to be/what I need to do, in order for the counter not to work against the technique... or how to flow into somthing else, if need be...

So to an extent, if it's benefical to the training, its benefical to the training.

I think, what I am saying, is that sometimes, it has a place.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

If someone is trying to perform a technique on me and I am able to punch them in the face, then I punch them in the face - not hard - but I show them where their holes are.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

See, this is what I mean. There are ALWAYS several kinds of openings, you can't take advantage of them arbitrarily. And even if there aren't any, that can cause your opponent to get desperate, which makes him even more dangerous.
Also, you often hear people say things like "if you take him to this position, he won't be able to punch you effectively". Well, the problem is, people who participate in violent confrontations tend to be in decent physical shape. This means that you can't count on them needing to use "taijutsu" to land blows that will hurt you.

 

[Don Roley]

Ok, time to revisit an old thread based on things that happen in training.

Last night at Ayase I worked out with a visiting student. Nice guy. He made some mistakes that I noticed but did not point out. I know I made some mistakes and found out about them by observing what he was doing when I was an uke.

I think that finding out what I was doing wrong by experiencing them as uke had a lot more impact than if he had told me.

But some of the things I know Hatsumi was showing he never picked up. Maybe there were some things I never picked up.

There have been some comments in this thread about people that never tell you what you are doing wrong while working out with you. I tried to convey what I thought the other guy was doing wrong, but not by words.

I don't know if I did wrong or not. I am still chewing that over in my mind. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I tend to think that people that make a big show of telling you what you are doing wrong are kind of doing it to show that they know more than you. Boy have I seen that time and time again. I just do not want to appear like I am trying the same game on people.

I remember one time I was training years ago in Shiraishi's class with a visiting instructor. He had his students with him. As we went through the drills that were being shown I could tell the guy had no idea at all about kuzushi. And anyone who knows Shiraishi knows that he does everything based around an understanding of kuzushi.

I got a little tired of this and stopped him and told him to watch Shiraishi as he demonstrated something and told him to watch for the balance. I pointed it out when Shiraishi stopped in the middle of a throw and told him how it made the move possible and to watch for it at all times.

A few days later I was at Ayase when Hatsumi pauses in the middle of a technique and asks, "why am I able to do this?" The guy I had been training with yells out in glee- "because you have his balance!"

The entire class stops to stare at this guy and I wanted to crawl into a hole. :toilclaw:

Just another danger of telling your uke too much.

But just how much do we owe a uke and how should we let them know that we can tell they are leaving something out?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I did something at a seminar recently that I kind of regret looking back on it now... I trained with this quite big and strong guy (not huge, but bigger than average), who apparently had the habit of pulling his arm back into a semi-chicken wing just before throwing a punch so that his elbow wasn't lined up with his torso. I tried to break it to him easy that he would be able to hit me much harder and less telegraphed if he held his elbow close to his body and used his hips and spine to propel the punch instead of his shoulder muscles, but he just shrugged it off with the explanation that nobody would stand still with an outstretched arm in a real fight anyway. I don't know if it was due to communications difficulties or that I was coming across as a know-it-all, but I decided to not care about it any more and just get on with the training...later, I walked away right in the middle of the training session in question but that didn't have anything to do with the guy I was training with but rather with the person conducting the training...

I'm starting to think that correcting your uke verbally might be more acceptable if his movements are making it needlessly difficult to practice the stuff you're supposed to be practicing, for instance if you're practicing bo versus katana and his attacks aren't actually done at such a range that they would cause damage should they connect.

 

[Henso]

I think it is imperative to have the courage to tell/advise another, tactfully, of course, when you observe something that might improve their skill/practice, or via any retort of theirs, learn something new. I think that although we all worry about looking like "know it alls," when we advise others, that it is ultimately counter productive to indulge our culture's politically correct sensibilities, fearing to offend others, while practicing an art that is not only supposed to incalcate real combat skills, but, also to lead to the diminishing of the ego.

For me, the answer seems clear, I cannot both hold onto to the tender sensibilities of a soft and decadent age, and yet learn the skills of a harder more primal time. I would personally request that anyone and everyone who I have the good fortune to train with, feel free to advise me as to their observations and assessments of my practices/abilities, otherwise, I might proceed under an errant assumption that all is well, when it is fact not.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I don't think you're going to look at it the same way once you've trained with a large enough number of people.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I think we all know that one way or another, no matter how much you try to hide it, your taijutsu reflects your personality. I for one don't like having to make decisions in a snap (even though my training has helped me a lot in this regard) which often means that I stand still in one place for too long periods of time which means I leave myself open for counters if my uke isn't feeling cooperative.

A month or two ago someone asked me if I thought I was a good uke, generally speaking. At the time, I replied that I thought I was, but I realized later that that wasn't really what I had been meaning to say. My definition of a good uke is first and foremost someone who doesn't make it any more or any less difficult for tori than he's told to at the given time. Does anyone disagree?

At the dojo I currently train at (not my regular place), everyone has the habit of countering or fighting back if for instance a lock isn't applied correctly or if there are any obvious openings. And of course, you as a tori get to work on your own improvisation skills to make sure uke doesn't escape just as easy as he'd thought. But that's all right in my opinion, because first of all everybody knows one another, and we all know and agree upon what the rules of the game are from the moment we step onto the mat. The most important point as I see it is that we all refrain from countering what tori's trying to do to such an extent that he's going to have to harm you seriously to stop you.

But what do you say to someone who protects himself so well that the only way around it all would be to hurt him, and whom at the same time tries to defend his actions by saying that he's just trying to be an uke with awareness?

 

[buyuben]

After training in this for a while, and training with a lot of different people, you should hopefully begin to develop a sense regarding the willingness of your training partner to hear suggestions regarding their ability to 'get' what is being taught. You should also develop the ability to present your advice in a way that does not talk down to your training partner.

One trick I have when the person I am training with does not 'get it' and does not seem to be open to suggestion is to call the instructor over and ask questions regarding the exercise, usually focused on what is not working for my training partner without specifically stating so (that's assuming that I have a grasp on the exercise myself :uhyeah: ). Sometimes they seem to be more willing to listen to the instructor than myself.

If they still are not willing to take the hint, I use them for the piece of training meat that they are and then find someone else to train with.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Ok, time to revamp an old subject...

Something I've noticed recently is that people who are used to having an over-cooperative uke (i.e. someone who goes down on voluntarily without you even having to perform the technique on him correctly) and suddenly are confronted with someone whom at least requires them to DO something in order for him/her to go to the ground, often display one out of two common behavioral patterns.

The first has already been touched on in this thread - attacking the head/neck/throat as a persuasive maneuver to make someone go down. The other, which is not quite as harmless, is to assume that the problem lies with the uke rather than with themselves. In other words, they can't tell the difference between the times when their movements lack one or more critical components required for them to be effective, and those when their uke is simply resisting what they're trying to do. This often results in them "reciprocating" what they believe to be an unreasonable degree of resistance.

This is the reason I've picked up the habit of saying something along the lines of "I lost it there" or "my fault, sorry" whenever I screw up. This softens up the person I'm training with since it shows them that I don't take myself too seriously (unless told to, of course) and also that I at least care about the person I'm training with to such an extent that we both can get the best possible training, and none of us has to walk away feeling like an idiot any more than usually.:asian:

All right, I'm off the soapbox for now. :soapbox:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

New incident from the real world coming up...


Monday night I once again visited another dojo which I am not a permanent member of, which is something I believe strongly that everyone should do whenever the opportunity arises (there is only one person who has the closest equivalent to the "truth" about taijutsu, and he also happens to be a very poor teacher as well as live in another country). Without going into specifics, the training attitude at this particular place is that neither beginners nor advanced students should focus too much on specific technical details, i.e. if you want to elaborate on what the instructor just showed you, that is perfectly acceptable - at least everyone does it and nobody's really complaining openly.
Anyway, after a while I got to train with this guy I had never met before - young, probably about 15 or 16 at the most, with what I estimated as a training time of probably no more than a year. He started out throwing three sequential punches the way the technique we practiced called for, and as soon as I got control of his elbow joint I noticed he was resisting and trying to get up. I didn't think much of it just then, I simply bent my knees to make him go to the ground, and allowed him to roll away afterwards.
He punched again, I gained control of his arm, and now he was resisting in another direction, a bit more obviously this time. I allowed him to get up again just in time for me to apply an ura oni kudaki henka and take him down into a take ori controlling hold on the ground, after which I said "you feeling anxious about something? No need to dude, chill out". He punches a third time, and this time I hardly got to control his arm before he turned clockwise and tried to hit me with a spinning elbow to the face. Now, I started to realize something was seriously wrong with him. I flinched with my right elbow and speared the triceps of his right attacking arm while simultaneously lightly kneeing the small of his back to break his balance. He then started to fall down but surprised me by managing to catch my neck in the fall. I could have resisted it but instead tried to follow him to the ground to see if I could talk som sense with him there. Ironically, I then found myself following the standard Gracie anti-headlock procedure by grinding my forearm against his carotid to make him release the grip, after which I put my left leg in front of his throat and my right knee at the back of his neck while grabbing the arm to apply - you guessed it - a kimura/reverse hammerlock.

Upon having him under my control, I gave it my last shot at being polite and asked "do we really have to be like this all the time?"
He responded "it'll be more fun for you that way". Shortly after that, we were given a new technique which was apparently some sort of a koku/renyo henka, in which we were supposed to catch the leg and opposing arm (right leg - left arm) and take him down. Sure enough, partially due to my own sloppiness but also because of his behaviour, he tried to trap my leg with his arm after falling down. I decided that was to be the end of his antics. I therefore went down hard with my right knee on his right thigh just above his knee, put on my best expressionless Wanderlei Silva face and asked "do you want me to do those things as well?"
"What?" he asked, looking mildly worried for the first time.
"That", I said briskly. Sure enough, he said nothing for a second or two after which we were given a new technique and told to switch partners. He seemed to behave a bit better towards the others after that, though I don't know how permanent that will be.

There are a lot of boundaries you will go over by doing certain things during training, just as there are a lot of messages you send out to others both by means of your actions and by means of your words. People have been known to complain about me that I often look too bored, distant and/or uninterested at times - in actuality, I pretty much never feel that way, it's just that I always practice the use of my peripheral vision as much as possible.

Ponder for a while what hesitance/willingness to go to the ground and continue to work from there will tell your partner about yourself. How will he react to you being tense in any way, how much will he let you experiment with techniques, what is his reaction to sudden moves, how much does he feel it is acceptable to give or receive verbal corrections? Also ask yourself during which circumstances you may apply hip throws or similar things without your partner feeling uncomfortable, how many times you can use a head takedown before your partner starts to think you have poor imagination and/or ability to improvise. When could you pull out a hidden weapon such as a neck/boot training knife, when do you start applying controlling holds after a takedown, and to what extent do you need to demonstrate your ability to control someone?

Somehow I've always felt that it takes some serious cojones to be a good uke to someone you haven't met before, especially if you're visiting a training seminar or a dojo where you haven't been before. Any jerk who received hard slaps to the face by dad between 1982 and 1994 can be a pain in the a** to his training partner. The reason for this is very simple - you don't know what he might do to you, accidentally or intentionally. You don't know if he's one of those guys that makes something come loose in your elbow every time you practice with him. You don't know if his lack of control when wielding a bokken will result in a bloody nose or a black eye for your part.
On the other hand, I spoke about this issue earlier this year with the instructor who coined the term "rock-and-roll kihon happo", in which, as I've said before, the uke attempts to protect himself a little more than usually. He then said to me something along the lines of "well, that's exactly it. If I as an uke am going to play the part of not knowing what tori is going to do to me, of course I am going to defend myself a little more".

This got me thinking. How much are we actually programming ourselves to compliant uke, and how clever is that really in regards to reality?
I know of some people who constantly b*tch about the fact that the people acting as uke for Hatsumi and the Japanese shihan tend to feed them way too meager and weak attacks, and that that is poor uke training because "you should always be in a position to attack again and again as uke". However, as anyone would know who has experienced instances in which someone has decided to test the Japanese for real, they are more than capable of dealing with whatever you throw at them without raising an eyebrow. The complex part is that the amount of punishment and/or negative reputation you're going to receive is at the very least equal to the amount of violence you dish out against them, which most people who act as uke to them are very well aware of.

Could it really be as simple as this - that it is the instructor's job to specify just how compliant people should be with each other, even at larger seminars?

 

[Kreth]

I think you have to take responsibility for your own training. When I'm uke for someone I don't know, I usually start out mostly compliant, unless there's a huge hole in their technique. If it's someone I'm more familiar with, I'll be less so, but never to the extent of the moron you mentioned above.
I also feel that if you give a weak, unrealistic attack when asked to uke while a technique is being demoed for a class, that you're doing a huge disservice to the entire class. You're changing the dynamic of the whole interaction.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I just want to clarify one thing - I meant to write "how much do we program ourselves to BE compliant uke".

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

*nudge nudge*

I'm thinking of writing a lineup of the most common types of uke one may encounter in the Bujinkan. After reflecting on the issue for quite some time, I think I've been able to identify quite a bit of common denominators. In any traditional martial art you're probably bound to encounter a whole lot of strange individuals. It's as much a part of training as blowing your nose after a session and it coming out black.

 

[eyebeams]

I have always preferred the protocol that makes tori responsible for outlining uke's behaviour and level of resistance. This means that tori needs to be honest with him/herself about what s/he wants or needs out of the practice.

I usually warm up with uke providing "single point" resistance. This means that uke is solely concentrating on the energy and sincerity of the intended attack instead of using it as a starting point for dynamic counters. Uke also has an easier job of trying to focus on a sincere, realistic (without the bounds of the movement) attack.

After that, we can escalate to dynamic resistance with no counterattack, dynamic resistance with counterattacks, and, finally, resistance and counterattacks with varying timing (we normally use "even" timing such as go no sen to bring the movement back and forth first) to get the jump in terms of speed and broken rhythm. If you define these expectations and are honest with yourself about which conditions you are ready for, you minimize misunderstanding.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I wish I could do what you're describing.

 

[Tenchijin2]

After that, we can escalate to dynamic resistance with no counterattack, dynamic resistance with counterattacks, and, finally, resistance and counterattacks with varying timing (we normally use "even" timing such as go no sen to bring the movement back and forth first) to get the jump in terms of speed and broken rhythm.

As an aside... how are you defining go no sen? I've never seen any of the initiatives require an 'even' timing or rhythm.