Where do we draw the line?

[Cryozombie]

If you're encountering resistance, you need to be doing something different.

Ha! Yeah!

If you try and apply, say Omote, and the guy is ready for it... its not likely work, without really muscleing it... If you apply Omote, WHILE kicking him in the knee, so he is thinking about his knee, not the Omote, the omote will work...

Is that what you mean?

 

[Mountain Kusa]

Sometimes I switch the peole I am training with, and sometimes I dont. If I am training with someone that is condusive to "both" of us learning, good, If not, time to switch. I personally like training with several people as it gives me a wider range of movements and body types to work with.

As far as classes, there are many reasons I will have peole switch; Ego's start kicking in, I need a more experienced person with someone new, two people are not taking things seriously so I might place them with two more mature or serious people. Sometimes I will place different weapons on the floor and have the people rotate around those weapons applying the principles of whatever we are doing with that weapon at that station.

Last week I handed out several sizes of sticks for hanbojutsu training, Everybody had fun and learned allot from that, and Got a particular good laugh when I pulled out a 1/2" dowel about 12" inches long and stated "oh well I guess this is all that is left for me" and stuck it under my belt." I had much fun with that. Size dosn't matter they finally said.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

For a long time I wondered why it's characteristic of skilled taijutsu players not to stand still for very long times. Then I understood why (I think:uhyeah: ).

 

[Bunkai]

Nimravus, I believe that the line should've been drawn by your instructor, on your way back into the dojo, after your childish antics. To strike your uke like that is repugnant, and I am suprised that none of the shihan on this board reprimanded you for this...the dojo is not a place for ego or rage, and you exemplified both.
If I had been on the mat that day, it would not have been pretty.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Ooookay, so does that mean you as an instructor that day would have done nothing to solve the issue of the guy intentionally tensing up to sabotage his partner's training? If so, it wouldn't be a pretty sight so see him go to Japan, or any other large Bujinkan gathering...he'd have no problems finding people far less merciful than me there.

As a side note, I'll never forget the time a guy was lifted by his hair and belt and threwn head first into the wall by our then head instructor for being a jerk to everyone he trained with... :whip:

 

[Blind]

Nimravus, I believe that the line should've been drawn by your instructor, on your way back into the dojo, after your childish antics. To strike your uke like that is repugnant, and I am suprised that none of the shihan on this board reprimanded you for this...the dojo is not a place for ego or rage, and you exemplified both.
If I had been on the mat that day, it would not have been pretty.

To me it didn't sound like ego or rage, maybe it was frustration but as I said in an earlier post, if no one was hurt and his training partner got the point then it is a good lesson learned. Sometimes even the best of us fall down, and in the last part of your post what are you referring to???Would you have gone over and sorted him out?? Would that not have been you venting your rage at a person who was doing something that you didn't like?? Sounds an aweful lot like your ego is pretty healthy to comment on how pretty things would have been .

 

[Cryozombie]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-TECHNOPUNK
-MT Moderator-

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

To me it didn't sound like ego or rage, maybe it was frustration but as I said in an earlier post, if no one was hurt and his training partner got the point then it is a good lesson learned.

Thing is, I don't know if he did get the point or not.:idunno:

 

[Don Roley]

Thing is, I don't know if he did get the point or not.:idunno:

He may not have learned that his ego was controlling him to the extent that he was playing a quien es mas macho game with you by trying to sabotage your training.

He may not have learned that trying to prevent one type of technique opens you up to other types of techniques.

He may not have learned that it is best to do the most appropriate and least expected technique rather than force a move on someone who knows what is coming and is trying to prevent it.

But he probably knows by now that messing with the training partner is not a one way street and he can't do it without consequences in the future.

 

[Dale Seago]

Very, very nicely put. Actions do have consequences.

I remember a seminar I taught years ago. . .Bill Atkins came down from the hills to train, and to help out as best he could. There were some non-Booj "jujitsu" folks training in the seminar, who didn't know who Bill was, and at one point Bill was partnered with one of them when the guy tried to get competitive and prove the technique wouldn't work. Which caused him to have to sit out the rest of the seminar with what turned out to be a torn rotator cuff.

 

[Mighty Atom]

Training partners as in life outside the dojo will vary.

In your own dojo you have the time and possibility to "pick" your partners to alleviate continually training with an awkward / inexperienced / macho Uke.

We should were possible educate these people and explain that if they dont change that their opportunity to train will diminish as partners will be scarce.

You can point out their :uhyeah: failings by gentle persuasion, light touching or once in a while a strike to distract.

Except that some people will not learn. If the technique is applied and the waza is complete and uke still taps you as if to say "I had you there" you need to know that this would not be case and uke would have been incapacitated prior to you allowing them to recover.

As long as you know then your training continues. If uke wants to go home and feel he "could of had you" despite your attempts to teach him other wise then its their training that suffers.

Change partners and keep going!!!!!

 

[Don Roley]

I appreciate any and all clarification I can get, especially at bigger seminars out of town and so forth. It's so much better than the "nameless, bitter yudansha-ranking budo-snob" you also encounter at times; he's bigger than you, more highly ranked than you, and refuses to give any advice whatsoever when something goes wrong and you don't know why.

Old topic, but I remember when I first reading this how it struck a cord. Recent events have caused me to think about it even more.

Just how much do we owe our training partners? That seems to be the question to me.

The last few times I trained with certain teachers I got partnered with visiting green belts. They really did not know anything. I mean one did not even know gedan uke. The teacher was doing a variation of it and he just could not pull it off. When I said it was similar to what is in hicho no kamae no kata and the last two san shin movements he just looked at me with a blank look.

And when we picked up a rokushakubo.................

Now, I feel a bit guilty. I started out trying to point out the mistakes that caused them to not be able to do the techniques. But I cut back after a short while. It was taking too much of my time to tell them how to get better and the time I had to train and learn was being severely shortened as a result.

I understand what it is like to not understand what is going on and would like to help. But I was paying just as much money for the training as them and I do not see why I should sacrifice my entire lesson just to help people that should have gotten some more training before they showed up to Japan.

On the other hand, I really try to work out with a certain Japanese senior who will take the time to point out my many mistakes so that I can work on them later. I think I should return the favor to those with less experience than me. I do help out at my regular dojo with the other students, but how much should I give up of my own training for someone who just did not bother to prepare before coming to Japan?

 

[Shogun]

I am talking about trying to do oni kudaki on someone who knows it is coming and is trying to resist you putting it on. I call it the "oni kudaki or bust" syndrome.

Ah, I hate that. when training, unless randori, you should be like a freaking noodle. a wet noodle. angel hair or somen style is preferable. usually, as mentioned. there are consequences for acting like an idiot, or trying to resist when someone is trying to learn proper tehcnique. I have asked my instructors before doing what I do and they cleared it, but when someone is being a ***whipe during training, and showing they are good at resisting, I show them I am good at Jiu Jitsu and make em give the floor a couple slaps.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Ah, I hate that. when training, unless randori, you should be like a freaking noodle. a wet noodle. angel hair or somen style is preferable.

I disagree. It's good to give a slight degree of resistance to work with to make sure the other guy really is twisting his spine and moving his feet. There is a difference between that and striving backwards while the techniques calls for uke to be pushed forward.

 

[ShaneLayton]

To me being a good uke is just as important as being tori in any technique. You should give the attack as perfectly as possible ... this is uke's training in my humble and unsolicited opinion. When I am uke I try to give as perfect an attack as possible, and I do not "give" the technique to tori. I don't resist per se, but I do make tori apply the technique properly. He must take my balance, I don't give it away (at least not on purpose ).

Uke should not actively resist the technique because he should be concentrating on delivering the proper attack. Anything else just distracts from training, and we only have an hour and a half to two hours to train here. No time for distractions.

 

[DWeidman]

Ah, I hate that. when training, unless randori, you should be like a freaking noodle. a wet noodle. angel hair or somen style is preferable. usually, as mentioned. there are consequences for acting like an idiot, or trying to resist when someone is trying to learn proper tehcnique. I have asked my instructors before doing what I do and they cleared it, but when someone is being a ***whipe during training, and showing they are good at resisting, I show them I am good at Jiu Jitsu and make em give the floor a couple slaps.

Training with the "noodle" group is a waste of time - as you learn practically nothing from a limp body.

Just act NATURAL - it really isn't that hard. Being a "noodle" gives the other person a false sense of accomplishment.

-Daniel

 

[Bigshadow]

To me being a good uke is just as important as being tori in any technique. You should give the attack as perfectly as possible ... this is uke's training in my humble and unsolicited opinion.

That is an excellent post. I firmly believe that half of our training is learning to attack. As Uke we should train as hard as we do as Tori. Including not giving any data.

There are times when the softening techniques are used, but I have often seen them used to "force" a technique, rather than the tori taking control of the kukan and the uke's spine.

 

[Don Roley]

I think that the job of the uke is not to give the most realistic attack he can. The attack must be realistic, but that is not the purpose.

The purpose is to give the tori the best example of the chance to use the technique.

The Bujinkan tries to get you to do not the "right" technique, but rather the most appropriate technique. When you see a situation, you should be able to tell the most appropriate response. This comes from training in situations where you have experienced the most appropriate situation to use a particular move. From experience you are able to make that choice without thinking.

If the tori is open, or not doing the move in such a way that would make the move work, then he should be made aware of it. But to make things difficult by adding tension and the like makes the other guy to either do a differnet technique from what the teacher is doing or doing something that is less appropriate than the best.

If it a free response situation and the tori can do whatever he wants, then it does not matter. But if there is a specific technique the teacher wants done, then the uke should work to set up the situation that cries to the tori to do the move.

 

[Bigshadow]

I think that the job of the uke is not to give the most realistic attack he can. The attack must be realistic, but that is not the purpose.

But if there is a specific technique the teacher wants done, then the uke should work to set up the situation that cries to the tori to do the move.

I agree with this too. Obviously, if the instructor wants the students working on a particular technique, the uke needs to do the appropriate attack to draw out the technique (whatever this means to anyone). However, the uke needs to do it properly and realistic at the same time (proper kamae, balance, no more data than is necessary, etc.)

 

[Shogun]

By saying noodle, I am not saying limp. Noodles have a degree of resistance in them, including rigidness and flexibility. basically, an active posture is necessary. what I disagree with, is when one learns a new technique, and the other person is fighting, and pulling. Its hard to explain but the best way is for the Uke to just maintain a good base. in Aikido, Ukemi is almost more important than being Nage (tori).

I had this jerk 2nd kyu throwing me and smacking my sides when I was trying the technique. I simply asked him if he wanted to fight me oor learn the technique, and that I was very good in the former.