Where do we draw the line?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

For starters, I believe every Bujinkan member goes through a certain phase of development in which he or she becomes less and less naive. Usually, this begins with the realization of the fact that one can simply forget about putting on wrist locks on someone who doesn't want that without a little "persuasion".
I already know that everything I do can be countered with the right type of movement and timing, and no one has to prove to me that that is or isn't true - because I know it's true. Realistically speaking, there's always something that can be done, but that doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want to whenever.

One of the things I really hate at times about the Bujinkan is that you have virtually no guarantee whatsoever that the person you're training with has the same attitude towards training as yourself. Something really annoying I encountered while in Japan is that people can be very arbitrary in their ways of hitting you. Let's say I was doing a tengu dori style takedown, or if I'd just put a knee in someone's groin while elbowing his throat - I could always count on being hit in the ribs the moment after.
Sure, I'll take a hit to the ribs any time if I get to elbow the person hitting me in the throat or snap his neck beforehand - it's just so goddamn pointless. Has everyone forgotten what can happen when you get hit?

It's things like these that keep people from training with anyone from outside their dojo when at seminars. And that's a real shame, since there is much to learn out there. I know that adaptation and improvisation is essential, but at times, the resistance encountered is so strong that the only way around it would cause serious damage. I'm so ****ing tired of people who tense their arms if you stand still for half a second too long before completing your seioi nage, for instance...have they really forgotten that there won't be time for them to do that IRL? If it's shinken gata type training where the timing has to be exact, that's one thing, but that also means it's up to the instructor to decide beforehand. One of the basic premises for learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is that if you want to be able to do something quickly and correctly, you start with doing it slowly and correctly. Until you know it, that is.

I always thought excessive countering of techniques was beneath me - until today.

I was practicing a type of defense against a horizontal knee strike with another guy, a green belt who's been with us for about a year but has far less mat time than pretty much anyone else who came to us at the same time as he did. He's known for constantly tensing up, and I can accept that if beginners do it unintentionally (because THAT'S an interesting thing to deal with), but this time I could really tell that he did it for the sole purpose of messing up whatever it was I was trying to do. I noticed his arm was as tense as if he was holding on to something to save his life, which prevented me from setting up the technique we were practicing at the moment. Before I even had time to think it over, I hit him square in the jaw with a clenched fist.

It was nowhere near as powerful as it would have been for real, let alone hard enough to knock him to the ground, but given the repercussion I experienced courtesy of out mutual instructor for the day, that could very well have been the case. Indeed, the guy I hit took it much better than my instructor or myself.
When I finally had time to think the ordeal through, I realized that the resistance he offered was the same type as I encountered when I got into an altercation with a guy on new year's eve, which provoked pretty much the same reaction (no injuries on his or my part, though, but that's a different story). I understood that I had somehow "programmed" myself into responding with dakentai as soon as I encountered excessive tension and/or resistance, to "soften up" the guy I was dealing with. However, that seems to have worked a bit too well. I honestly didn't know what I was doing until I had done it. I have now decided to take a break from training for about a month, to calm myself down and ensure this doesn't happen again.

I left the dojo angered, both at myself for over-reacting and at the fact that there is no guarantee in the Bujinkan that the training resistance isn't too soft or too excessive. My question is therefore: where do we draw the line between being a good uke and behaving exactly like the "average Edited to conform to MT's Rules and Policies" we are most likely to encounter IRL? Especially when dealing with beginners, how many don't you think have quit their training due to lost faith in the system when they realized that there are things that cannot be done under certain circumstances? And everyone, please, take the "to spar or not to spar" discussion elsewhere for the time being.

All right, I'm off the soapbox. :soapbox:

 

[Koinu]

The line between being a good Uke and a bad one is a fine one. The trouble is in the fact that many people only see the doing of a tec (tori) to someone as the real training. Learning how the tec feels when done to you as a good Uke is a major part of the training that some people just don't get. The instructors teach in a certain manner for a reason , we may not see that reason , so should do the tec as instructed. If someone wants to try to resist or throw in strikes other than what has been show by the instructor they should ask thier training partner if they can try this or that after doing the tec a few times as shown by the instructor.
My pet hate is those that don't try and hit you when training I think they are worse than a resisting Uke IMHO. I have trained with my fair share of resisting Uke's and have learned that this also is an good lesson because you will find people in a real fight that will resist but you will never find someone in a real fight that is not trying to hit you for real. I deal with resisting Uke's in much the same manner as you did if it go's beyond a reasonable level, or I just change the tec and reverse it to flow with the resistance.
I don't think you have done any thing wrong in your actions , and I don't see why your instructor made such an issue out of it as you taugh your partner a good lesson. I did very much the same to and Uke that was well know for resisting and throwing punches that were not there, He threw a punch at me once to often and at full speed and my elbow smacked him in the jaw before I knew I had even used it. He hit me but he was the one on the floor, he got up and said " I won't do that again" I said you should not have done it in the first place. People often say OH I could of hit you , My normal answer is yes you could have BUT AT WHAT COST.
Don't think to hashly of yourself and don't stop training you did nothing wrong and no one was hurt except thier pride and Ego. Gambatte

 

[Blind]

I agree. Don't worry about it. In my experience beginners tend to unconsciously resist what they know is coming, often I think it comes from a need to know it works, and if you are a much higher rank it seems they assign you superman ability and assume you can make it work anytime. To me it sounds like you effectively demonstrated that nothing is set and if you do find resistance or cannot complete a method for whatever reason then you change. To my mind it is good for his learning and you made a good point, as long as they don't take it in training you should just do what you like because it is easier then it is fine IMO.

As for training partners you don't know, I guess the best you can do is look at it as a lesson in character assessment, unfortunately we can't always pick who we train with, what I try and do is feel out their personality and guess what type of attacks they will make and what their attitude is. We all strike out sometimes, I find the most annoying type (to go off topic a bit here) is the self appointed teacher. I have run into a few people who take it upon themselves to tell me how I should be training or what I am doing wrong. I am not saying that they were wrong and in many cases they may have been right, however in my opinion unless someone asks a person for advice or designates them as their teacher, they should keep to themselves(during a class at least-I guess I am being hypocritical writing here).

Anyway it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong and I wouldn't bother with a break, unless you really feel it is necessary.

 

[Blind]

My last post was a little off track, in regard to being a robot let them do what they like vs resist everything while trying to keep it real and take into account their strikes and such. I mostly lean towards let them do whatever in a learning environment with people I don't know. At hatsumi senseis class for example he is almost always doing stuff beyond the range of a mere mortal like myself, so I mostly play along and just try and get a feel for what he is on about and hopefully the person I train with allows me the same. Training with people I know well however I start slow and build up to where it starts to come apart then drop it back a bit. That way there is still a reasonable amount of pressure, I don't come apart and freeform it(leading into the sparring there).

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I find the most annoying type (to go off topic a bit here) is the self appointed teacher. I have run into a few people who take it upon themselves to tell me how I should be training or what I am doing wrong. I am not saying that they were wrong and in many cases they may have been right, however in my opinion unless someone asks a person for advice or designates them as their teacher, they should keep to themselves(during a class at least-I guess I am being hypocritical writing here).

I totally disagree. I appreciate any and all clarification I can get, especially at bigger seminars out of town and so forth. It's so much better than the "nameless, bitter yudansha-ranking budo-snob" you also encounter at times; he's bigger than you, more highly ranked than you, and refuses to give any advice whatsoever when something goes wrong and you don't know why(often, such people have an affinity for avoiding larger training camps, but at the same time tend to attend any and all smaller seminars held by anyone who has recently been to Japan - I guess one could call them a subspecies of the "kata collectors").
As a matter of fact, I had to endure a similar thing with a guy I didn't know before at a seminar roughly a year and three months ago. I always took pride in being capable of doing a good job as an uke, but at this one time he apparently didn't think I was as forthcoming as he'd like, so I received a very similar treatment - an uppercut straight to the jaw which knocked me out cold for a few seconds. When I came to my senses lying on the floor, all he said was something like "you should have been more relaxed".

I absolutely DO NOT want to become such a person no matter what. And as I said before, it's one thing training with people that don't know they're tense because that in my experience has always turned out to be interesting, but it's quite another if someone tenses up just to destroy your ability to do whatever you had in mind for the moment.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

In my experience beginners tend to unconsciously resist what they know is coming, often I think it comes from a need to know it works, and if you are a much higher rank it seems they assign you superman ability and assume you can make it work anytime.

Thing is, we happen to have a head instructor who CAN make it work anytime...

 

[Dale Seago]

This "problem of the uncooperative uke" is fairly common in our art. Personally, I feel it's an instructor's job to guide students in "how to be a good uke" for their partners in different stages of training. That also usually means the instructor has to physically show them what he's getting at.

For whatever it's worth, ours is not the only art where this problem crops up. It's been recently discussed at some length in a Systema (Russian martial art) forum, and you might find it interesting to take a look through the thread: http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=837

 

[Blind]

I totally disagree. I appreciate any and all clarification I can get, especially at bigger seminars out of town and so forth. It's so much better than the "nameless, bitter yudansha-ranking budo-snob" you also encounter at times; he's bigger than you, more highly ranked than you, and refuses to give any advice whatsoever when something goes wrong and you don't know why(often, such people have an affinity for avoiding larger training camps, but at the same time tend to attend any and all smaller seminars held by anyone who has recently been to Japan - I guess one could call them a subspecies of the "kata collectors").
As a matter of fact, I had to endure a similar thing with a guy I didn't know before at a seminar roughly a year and three months ago. I always took pride in being capable of doing a good job as an uke, but at this one time he apparently didn't think I was as forthcoming as he'd like, so I received a very similar treatment - an uppercut straight to the jaw which knocked me out cold for a few seconds. When I came to my senses lying on the floor, all he said was something like "you should have been more relaxed".

I absolutely DO NOT want to become such a person no matter what. And as I said before, it's one thing training with people that don't know they're tense because that in my experience has always turned out to be interesting, but it's quite another if someone tenses up just to destroy your ability to do whatever you had in mind for the moment.

Well that sounds a bit extreme, each to their own I guess. To my mind if someone wants to know what they are doing wrong and they think you can help then they can ask, in which case to not reply is being one of the people you are talking about, the people I am talking about offering advice unasked I still think should just keep it to themselves, one guy I trained with at a daikomyosai spent so much time teaching me I didn't really get much practise. The interesting thing is he couldn't practise what was being preached. At the end of the day I am more than happy to give my advice if someone asks, but to comment on a persons training who you don't really even know seems pretty arrogant to me.

 

[Don Roley]

It's so much better than the "nameless, bitter yudansha-ranking budo-snob" you also encounter at times; he's bigger than you, more highly ranked than you, and refuses to give any advice whatsoever when something goes wrong and you don't know why.

I don't think that Blind was talking about those types. I too like to get advice from someone who is clearly my superior in the art. That is why I go to class.

However, almost every last time I have seen someone jump in eagerly to correct a person they don't know at training it is a case of trying to be the alpha male of the dojo. Behind their words of advice and correction is the underlying message that they are better than the one they are giving advice to. And sometimes they don't have a clue themselves. Gee, do you think there is a relationship between their wanting to teach other people and their inability to listen to what the teacher says? :idunno:

I see that type of nonsense all the time. One person tries to dominate the other during their time together in training. It gets so bad sometimes that I try to stick to people that I know. One case I know of had one guy (whom we all make fun of in Japan) walking by two guys and telling the two of them that one of them really could learn a lot from the other. Translated into normal speak that means, "I know more than either of you and don't you forget it. That is why I can tell which of you should be teaching- because I sit on a level way above and can see down to yours."

And these dominance games can take the form of trying to foul up the other guys technique while he is doing it. If you know what is coming, you can make damn sure that it cannot go through as intended. You set yourself up for something else, but it forces the other guy to not do the technique and the idiot sits back in contentment knowing that the other guy can't make the technique work as demonstrated.

One time I was working out with an idiot who is called "Tuvak" behind his back. It was basic musha dori. But when I went to do it, Tuvak released the grab on my keikogi just as my hand was starting to slip over his arm and his whole arm just started to get pushed away. Without hesitation (because the big sin in the dojo I go to is sitting there surprised) I got my hand behind his elbow, had the other one grab his wrist and moved into a really nasty seoi nage. I got a compliment for it from my teacher. (Really rare from him.) I let the guy do the technique and then take my turn again and he does the same thing. Obviously, not a mistake. He planned it and I made the seoi nage I did a little more nasty the second time. So I get a little mad at him and the next time Tuvak goes to try musha dori I release at exactly the same time he did. Tuvak freezes and gets a lecture about how he needs to not just do things like a recipe from a cookbook. I know it was petty of me to play his game, but it felt so good to see his look of panic after he tried that type of stuff on me.

Oh yeah, I could vent a lot about these idiots in the Bujinkan.

Traditionally, the senior student or teacher was the uke for the techniques. Thus the guy fouling you up as you try to do them was obvioulsy your senior and these dominance games were not as bad. He was already considered above you and everyone respected that. It was his job to point out mistakes. I am sure there are and were many abuses of the system, but it was a bit different from the nonsense going on now.

This is why I do not try to help people I meet at training unless they have a relationship with me. There is just too many people trying to convince the other that they are superior that I don't want to even appear to be that type of person. I have broken this rule only a few times. I do it with friends and expect it in return. I do it with students below me that are showing really bad habits. But it does lead sometimes to people not even trying to do the technique, but engage in almost sparring type stuff.

In fact, I am having problems with one guy right now. He has only been training a few years and I remember when he started with us. He did things like turn his back on my free hand, or concentrate to much on a technique and leaving himself open. So I would touch him and let him know the openings he had. Now he is trying to do the same thing. The difference is that he has never been able to tag me. All he does is distract from what the teacher is trying to show. If I go to the outside of a punch, he tries a spinning back fist every time. I can see it coming from a mile off and have time to go out and get a latte, but still it comes every time and I can't do the thing that the teacher wanted us to do and instead deal with this ineffective attack. I am thinking of hurting him real bad the next time he tries it and pass it off as a training accident. (Oops, so solly! You did something the teacher didn't and I just reacted. Was that your larynx I crushed?) But for now, I usually try to practice with the leacherous kiwi rather than him.

So, rapping up my rant, I think that a senior student should do what he knows needs to be pointed out. If a student is at an equal or lower level, he should not engage in ths type of behavior. Otherwise you get the problems with people trying to jockey for position over another.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I have no problem with people pointing out openings, but there are more constructive ways of doing so than suckerpunching without a word of advice. If I was a shihan, though, it would be another matter...

 

[Mountain Kusa]

I find that if someone tenses up on me (the intentional tensers)I will do little kyusho things like pinching, or automatic nut protection reflex, touch them on the face around the eyes, etc, or change the technique to one which is not expected. I call it tough love, or learning the hard way, either way it will test their heart.

 

[Kizaru]

... And sometimes they don't have a clue themselves. Gee, do you think there is a relationship between their wanting to teach other people and their inability to listen to what the teacher says? :idunno:

I do it with students below me that are showing really bad habits. But it does lead sometimes to people not even trying to do the technique, but engage in almost sparring type stuff.

Reminds me of that song from "Sesame Street"...

"One of these kids is not like the other,
One of these kids is doing his own thing...."

 

[Cryozombie]

So, rapping up my rant, I think that a senior student should do what he knows needs to be pointed out. If a student is at an equal or lower level, he should not engage in ths type of behavior. Otherwise you get the problems with people trying to jockey for position over another.

But isnt part of being a good Uke giving feedback...

"Yeah, the pressure was good there" or "No I didnt feel it, but if you moved it a litte left I would have" etc...

 

[Kreth]

But isnt part of being a good Uke giving feedback...

"Yeah, the pressure was good there" or "No I didnt feel it, but if you moved it a litte left I would have" etc...

Ideally, yes. But a lot of people view being uke as downtime until they get to try the technique again...

Jeff

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I find that if someone tenses up on me (the intentional tensers)I will do little kyusho things like pinching, or automatic nut protection reflex, touch them on the face around the eyes, etc, or change the technique to one which is not expected. I call it tough love, or learning the hard way, either way it will test their heart.

And then they do the same thing as an attempt to protect themselves and counter, and then you re-counter, and then they counter your re-counter etc. ad nauseum, and basically what you've got at the end of it all is an uncomissioned sparring match.

Either that, or someone does a head takedown of some sort (it kind of amused me at Daikomyosai this year how many of the people being called up to demonstrate a technique did just that, by the way).

 

[Dale Seago]

Either that, or someone does a head takedown of some sort (it kind of amused me at Daikomyosai this year how many of the people being called up to demonstrate a technique did just that, by the way).

From what I've observed -- both at Daikomyosai and at other classes -- that seems to be a Spanish cultural predilection. They seem to tend to "default" to that more than anyone else.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I had the same problem while training with them, only the other way around...every single time I hit the floor, I received a kick to the head.:wah:

 

[Don Roley]

I have no problem with people pointing out openings, but there are more constructive ways of doing so than suckerpunching without a word of advice. If I was a shihan, though, it would be another matter...

I am not talking about sucker punching someone. Touching them is usually enough. If someone can tap your forehead, then they could probably gouge your eyes. And if they had a small knife concealed.......

Telling someone that they are open is a nice thing to do. But I still remember the first time a Japanese senior reached up while being thrown in ganseki nage and......touched....me. It made a heck of a lot more impact than if he had merely told me about how Takamatsu was taken out by a guy from Musashi ryu while he was throwing him. Instead of cupping them, he could have grabbed hold and taken them with him. I knew it. Not just in the head, but through my entire being. It is like the difference between seeing a tall building from below and imagining yourself standing on the edge and actually standing there.

But as I said, this can easily run into some weird and distracting actions. I saw a case of that just yesterday. My partner and me were touching each other when we were open and asking each other what the other thought we could do better. I looked over at two visitors and saw that they were playing a version of Quien es mas macho instead of what the teacher was showing. The techniques for the day were Koku, Renyo and Danshu. And they were obviously starting with one of the first two, but they were pretty much ignoring the hand techniques to jump straight to the point where one could catch the other with a strong and fast kick. What they were doing was IMO an insult to the teacher. They should have waited until they were back in their country before they started doing their own thing and instead stayed with what was being taught at the time. But they had their own agenda I guess. I was about to scream at them when their teacher caught their eye and shook his head. I still made a point of not dealing with any of them after class and left before them.

Sorry, I still have a bad taste in my mouth over that. :soapbox:

 

[Kreth]

I think it all comes down to how well you know your training partner. If I'm training with someone I don't know well, I'll probably only make a comment or touch them to illustrate a hole. If it's one of the crew I train with often, then I might throw in a slap or sometimes a reversal. It also depends on where I'm training. I feel a little more freedom to play around with a technique at my home dojo. When at someone else's dojo, or especially in Japan, I do my best to stick to what's being shown.
On the flip side of the coin, there's nothing I hate more than a ragdoll uke. I want feedback from my training partner, not someone who will take a dive every time I do the technique.

Jeff

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

When performed by someone without a good understanding of kihon (or for that matter, whenever they are regarded as techniques and thereafter deployed in actual combat), a lot of things coming out of Japan these days would be pretty easy to counter. All of it assumes that you understand kamae, distancing etc. correctly to begin with. Since, like I said before, there is no "quality" guarantee in the Bujinkan, when training at seminars or in Japan I personally would say it would be appropriate to be a little more forgiving than in regular training.