Whats parts of Ninjutsu can actually be traced to be true?

[kip42]

These two articles concern me.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35175&pp=15

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46037&

What moves if any can be traced to fact? Is Hatsumi rich? What moves did he teach when he thought he was dieing?

Where can I learn the orginal techniques if such a thing still exist? I dont want to learn the watered down new stuff.

 

[Stealthy]

Ninja can fly, walk on water and read minds.

 

[kip42]

I have been training weekly in the Bujinkan arts for a year now. All the stuff that I have learned, technique and philosphy seem street smart. I like how we attack naturally weak areas on an enemy. I studied MMA, karate forms, Tae Kwon Do, various forms of boxing and competition arts and none of them impressed me. I like the concepts of adapting, training in real world enviornments, learning to read your oppoents intensions, learning and using his weaknesses against him, fighting to win. I dont think any of the techniques seemed questionable. Not sure how this could be so effective but be accused of so many bad things. The con is I have never used or tryed them with a resisting opponent. Seems like a hit to a vital area or two will turn them into a less than resisting oppinent. I truly enjoy this art but fear things that I hear such as "Hatsumi charges alot of money t train with him, comes to class 30 mins late, forces you to watch a video for some of the class and claim its enough, then goes to party seminars where many advance to high ranks as well as collecting money for a statue of his instructor.

I truly want to learn the techniques that are truly real if any exist. If none exist I would like to train if this stuff works on the street and avoid the politics. I would also love to know who developed this and why they lied if they did.
I have a very good instuctor but want some more answers and dont know if I should ask him.

I would still study the Bujinkan if I knew it worked on the street dispite its possibility of not being real. I truly want a street smart method of defense. If Bujinkan doesnt work, I will go back to Krav Maga. Its just hard to think that the hitting of vulernable areas and the strategy behind Ninjutsu wouldnt work very well on the street?

 

[Chris Parker]

Haven't we already done this with you? Ah, here we are! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...e-Bujinkan-was-actually-used-in-ancient-Japan

These two articles concern me.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35175&pp=15

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46037&

They're getting to be old news now, but there's a fair few discussions around like that. Read, search, then make up your own mind.

What moves if any can be traced to fact?

A martial art is not it's "moves". And every move can be looked on as being a "fact" (it exists, you can be taught it, it can be demonstrated etc), they exist within particular Ryu-ha (martial traditions), your question is how many of the Ryu-ha are legitimately as old as they claim to be. Within these arts, that will be an eternal question. If it bothers you that much, I suggest moving on.... but recognise that it is not restricted to the Bujinkan arts. Kashima Shinryu, for instance, claims a history back to "The Age of Gods" (the 8th or 9th Century), which is what the Ryu teaches, however it is pretty much acknowledged that the actual founding date is closer to the mid 16th. It is reasonable to think the same of things like Gyokko Ryu and others.

Is Hatsumi rich?

Er, yes, he is. And that proves...? For the record, he was from a relatively well-off family, has large real estate investments, and would still be very wealthy even without the Bujinkan. The taxation issue with the Bujinkan becoming a religious institution is more to do with retaining control over who gets left the material possessions of the Bujinkan, rather than letting the Japanese Government take some or all of it (old weapons, scrolls etc).

What moves did he teach when he thought he was dieing?

The same ones... really, the obsession with "moves" really misses the point. If you're refering to the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki, it can be thought of as a 'best of' collection of some of the Ryu-ha's teachings. But the same techniques are taught today, and were taught before Hatsumi got sick. The method of teaching, however.... oh, and for the record, those guys on Bullshido discussing the TCJ had absolutely no idea of it's structure, or the way it is designed to be used, so don't worry about anything they had to say on the topic.

Where can I learn the orginal techniques if such a thing still exist? I dont want to learn the watered down new stuff.

Really, it'll all depend on your teachers understanding, and the approach they take.

When you talk about it "working on the street", though, what makes you think that a centuries old martial tradition, designed for attacks from a completely different time and place, with very different laws, social customs and considerations, cultural targeting concepts, attacking methods, weaponry, clothing, and more will be in any way immediately suited to a modern self defence scenario? You're getting lost in the movie fantasy of martial arts being the answer to modern violence, and that just ain't the truth of it.

 

[punisher73]

Can ninjutsu be adapted for "the street"? Yep, just like any other martial art on the planet.

 

[kip42]

Haven't we already done this with you? Ah, here we are! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...e-Bujinkan-was-actually-used-in-ancient-Japan



They're getting to be old news now, but there's a fair few discussions around like that. Read, search, then make up your own mind.



A martial art is not it's "moves". And every move can be looked on as being a "fact" (it exists, you can be taught it, it can be demonstrated etc), they exist within particular Ryu-ha (martial traditions), your question is how many of the Ryu-ha are legitimately as old as they claim to be. Within these arts, that will be an eternal question. If it bothers you that much, I suggest moving on.... but recognise that it is not restricted to the Bujinkan arts. Kashima Shinryu, for instance, claims a history back to "The Age of Gods" (the 8th or 9th Century), which is what the Ryu teaches, however it is pretty much acknowledged that the actual founding date is closer to the mid 16th. It is reasonable to think the same of things like Gyokko Ryu and others.



Er, yes, he is. And that proves...? For the record, he was from a relatively well-off family, has large real estate investments, and would still be very wealthy even without the Bujinkan. The taxation issue with the Bujinkan becoming a religious institution is more to do with retaining control over who gets left the material possessions of the Bujinkan, rather than letting the Japanese Government take some or all of it (old weapons, scrolls etc).



The same ones... really, the obsession with "moves" really misses the point. If you're refering to the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki, it can be thought of as a 'best of' collection of some of the Ryu-ha's teachings. But the same techniques are taught today, and were taught before Hatsumi got sick. The method of teaching, however.... oh, and for the record, those guys on Bullshido discussing the TCJ had absolutely no idea of it's structure, or the way it is designed to be used, so don't worry about anything they had to say on the topic.



Really, it'll all depend on your teachers understanding, and the approach they take.

When you talk about it "working on the street", though, what makes you think that a centuries old martial tradition, designed for attacks from a completely different time and place, with very different laws, social customs and considerations, cultural targeting concepts, attacking methods, weaponry, clothing, and more will be in any way immediately suited to a modern self defence scenario? You're getting lost in the movie fantasy of martial arts being the answer to modern violence, and that just ain't the truth of it.

I have previewed many arts. The main thing that draws me to the Bujinkan is the attcking of vulnerable areas and the overall strategy. Would you consider less effective in the modern day than other arts such as Krav Maga? Krav Maga still doesnt strive to attack the eyes and ears.

 

[Chris Parker]

Krav doesn't strive to attack the eyes and ears... so? Seriously, Kip, the art is far less important than the way it is trained! Okay? You've been told that repeatedly, it's getting a little old repeating it again. Oh, and previewing arts is nothing, and leads to nothing. Choose one art, with a teacher you respect and can learn from, someone who represents something you want to be or achieve, and stick with them. For a number of years, at least. Only then will you be in any position to comment on any art, at the moment it's like seeing the trailers for 10 films, and deciding which one should win the Oscar.

 

[Supra Vijai]

I have previewed many arts. The main thing that draws me to the Bujinkan is the attcking of vulnerable areas and the overall strategy. Would you consider less effective in the modern day than other arts such as Krav Maga? Krav Maga still doesnt strive to attack the eyes and ears.

Umm I've done a little cross training in Krav and am not sure where you got that particular idea from?? If anything my friend (who also trains in ninjutsu with myself) and I found Krav to be a little "too" brutal to safely use on the streets - win the fight, end up in jail type deal tbh. The primary response to most things was "strike their throat and collapse their trachea... that'll stop 'em hitting you!" or "oh they have a knife? take it off them and cut their throat with it". Krav is a military system through and through and doesn't bother with the niceties of civilian self defence in a lot of ways, or at least that's what I experienced. Strikes to eyes, ears, throat etc were not only common but encouraged.

Also, would what be less effective than Krav? Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?? A lot of this has been said to you as pointed out by Mr. Parker but can I just check that you actually know what it is you are looking for? You talk about BBT and other TMA and the strategies there etc but always come straight back to whether or not they would work on the street. I'm going to bold this for your benefit and increase the font size:

TMA (any of them) are not/were not explicitly designed to be used in a modern context on the streets as they are in the year 2011 or later.

They worked for the time period they were designed in based on cultural factors, environmental factors, types of clothing worn etc. If you really want something that will work in today's world (and a western one no less), you may want to consider dropping TMA altogether and joining a nice RBSD group near you. I'm sure plenty of people here could offer advice on some decent organisations and they'd let you play with knives and other shiny things to your heart's content...

 

[MJS]

Umm I've done a little cross training in Krav and am not sure where you got that particular idea from?? If anything my friend (who also trains in ninjutsu with myself) and I found Krav to be a little "too" brutal to safely use on the streets - win the fight, end up in jail type deal tbh. The primary response to most things was "strike their throat and collapse their trachea... that'll stop 'em hitting you!" or "oh they have a knife? take it off them and cut their throat with it". Krav is a military system through and through and doesn't bother with the niceties of civilian self defence in a lot of ways, or at least that's what I experienced. Strikes to eyes, ears, throat etc were not only common but encouraged.

I was going to reply but no need to. Thank you...you took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Supra Vijai]

I was going to reply but no need to. Thank you...you took the words right out of my mouth.

Anytime Just glad I didn't come off as out of line with the attitude