While reading this thread, I found the debate between Draven and punisher73, to be very interesting. I think that both of them made some very good points, so rather than sidetrack that thread, I wanted to start a seperate one. I wanted to take this thread, to discuss the techniques that we see in various arts, use of force and the law. Now, if we look at pretty much any art, we can see some pretty nasty things, things that if done on someone, would probably wreck the person pretty bad. These things are usually done in response to punches, grabs, kicks, chokes, and various weapon attacks. Just looking at some of the Kenpo techniques, we see things such as arm breaks/dislocations for a simple grab. We see pokes/gouges to the eyes for punches. The list can go on and on, but I think you see where I'm going with this. I've often thought about what other options there are, besides using the set technique, ie: instead of the eye shot, substitute that for a palm to the face. Still an effective move, but not on the same level as the eye shot. So, anytime we talk about a SD scenario, the topic of the law, the courts, lawsuits, juries, etc. always come up. What the jury will think about this or that, what if the bad guy sues us, etc., etc. But, if we look at our art, whatever it may be, it almost seems that no matter what we do, we could end up in hot water. For example, in that other thread, a RNC, in one state that was listed, was considered deadly force. Now, I dont know about anyone else, but when I travel, I dont research the laws (and maybe I should??) of the area that I'm going to. In other words, when I take my yearly trip to NYC, I dont look online to see what I can/can't do, should I need to defend myself. I dont research the laws of the USVI, when I go on a cruise with my wife. Again, maybe I should. IMO, I dont see it that necessary, for a short trip. However, if I were to move to NY for example, then yes, I think that would be a wise idea. Of course, while thinking of this thread today, something else came to mind. It seems that the majority of attacks that we may find ourselves in, are all on the assumption that they will be in daytime hours, in populated areas, that witnesses will be around, etc. So in other words, at 11pm, when you pull up to the ATM, and someone attempts to mug you, and you're fortunate enough to defend yourself, do you stay or take off? I know what I'd do, so I'm just tossing that out as a general question. Would the bad guy, if he were to stab you, call for help for you, while you're bleeding to death on the sidewalk? If I had to wager a guess, I'd say no. So, in closing, I'll say what I've said in times before. The safety of myself and anyone with me, is my #1 concern. I really dont have any concern for the guy who's trying to rob me, kill me, rape my wife, steal my car, break into my house, etc. I didn't invite that persons actions, so IMO, he gets what he gets. Yes, of course, as I said I'll always assess the situation, but whatever happens to him, well, maybe next time he'll think twice. I'm sure this will be frowned upon by some, and thats cool. Everyone has his/her opinions, and I'll respect that. Certainly not every situation will require a break of some sort. In that other thread, punisher73 commented that he ended a fight by attacking the biceps, of someone who threw roundhouse punches at him. Certainly a great move and very effective. I'm a big fan of limb destructions. Thoughts, comments, ideas.