What Do You Do After?

[MJS]

In the Zimmerman/Martin thread thats being discussed in the Study, TGace made a good point here. I'm starting this thread, to specifically discuss this statement:

I think it would be interesting to mine the forum for some of the threads on what to do after a SD situation..you know the stay/leave....talk to cops/don't talk threads...to see how posters opinions there mesh with this situation.

There may already be a thread on this or something similar, but rather than try to seek it out, I figured I'd just start a new one. So, what is the best course of action....talk/don't talk, stay/don't stay? I know it could be situation depending, but I figured it'd be interesting to get a general idea of where people are thinking.

I think in many cases, when it comes to SD, people focus on the 'during'....the guy attacks you, this is what you do. Rarely do we see the 'before' and 'after' phase, which is also very important.

 

[Rich Parsons]

In the Zimmerman/Martin thread thats being discussed in the Study, TGace made a good point here. I'm starting this thread, to specifically discuss this statement:



There may already be a thread on this or something similar, but rather than try to seek it out, I figured I'd just start a new one. So, what is the best course of action....talk/don't talk, stay/don't stay? I know it could be situation depending, but I figured it'd be interesting to get a general idea of where people are thinking.

I think in many cases, when it comes to SD, people focus on the 'during'....the guy attacks you, this is what you do. Rarely do we see the 'before' and 'after' phase, which is also very important.

I plan for afterwards as well.

I am not a lawyer and cannot make legal recommendations only write what I might do or have done.

1) I would stay. I have nothing to hide or fear. (* Unless life is at risk by staying in which case getting safe is still a priority, yet you can call from cell while moving *)
2) I would tell the truth. Usually it goes something like this. describe situation, it got out of hand, one or more people laid hands on me and then I was just trying to get back up and or stay alive, by stopping them from hurting me anymore than they already had.
3) I would keep it simple and basic. No real details. I have found the police do not believe details anyway. And those that do believe you may have details then believe you have made up these details or that you were not afraid or under a real threat.
4) I would ask to call a family member. Even if I get voice mail, I would say the following: "Oh yea, I should ask for a lawyer, shouldn't I." Now it is not you, but someone else outside the situation asking or stating I should have lawyer. Many an officer assumes you are guilty if you request one as is your right.
5) I have not left the scene of a crime, I have not committed a crime by leaving. I can render assistance to anyone if I can. I have not provided details. I have requested to have a lawyer. I am not the bad guy. I just like to mitigate liability and risk.

 

[Cyriacus]

The biggest risk I see is if there werent any/many witnesses around, and You leave, and the other guy accuses You of being the criminal in the matter.

 

[oftheherd1]

The biggest risk I see is if there werent any/many witnesses around, and You leave, and the other guy accuses You of being the criminal in the matter.

True, but you still have to worry about whether or not you can be identified, and if having left puts you in a less defensible position. Not for defense of the attack, but any attempts to make you the original aggressor.

 

[Cyriacus]

True, but you still have to worry about whether or not you can be identified, and if having left puts you in a less defensible position. Not for defense of the attack, but any attempts to make you the original aggressor.

...Isnt that what I said? Its what I was trying to say, anyway.

 

[oftheherd1]

I think Rich Parsons has a lot of good advice. First, you must assume you are not increasing your danger by staying around. Then you have to be sure you only answer questions by police. Tell the truth and nothing but the truth. Don't embellish or try too hard to make yourself the poor little innocent person. If you perceive disbelief on the part of the police, tell them you don't want to answer any more questions until you have talked to a lawyer, and tell them why. Your only answer after that is you want to talk to a lawyer. Stick to that even if they deny it, or try to cajole you into talking. Save it for your lawyer. What the police believe isn't near as important as what they can prove in court. If it degenerates to that, whatever you pay the lawyer, if you are aquitted, will be cheaper than spending time in jail.

This is if you are indeed put upon by an agressive person, tried to defuse the situaion and/or retreat, couldn't, and had to defend youself from a physical attack. If you know you are guilty of some crime, the situation is all different.

 

[oftheherd1]

...Isnt that what I said? Its what I was trying to say, anyway.

I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about leaving and never reporting the incident. My bad. :asian:

 

[Gentle Fist]

One thing for certain is to make sure Law Enforcement gets your side of the story especially if serious injury or death occurs. Staying on the scene or not depends on whether or not is safe to remain there. The police "usually" will understand if you have to leave the area for your own safety.

An easy example would be a bar fight in which you seriously injure someone. It may not be safe to remain there since his friends may be looking to hurt you after you strike down their friend...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't know if there are any easy and simple answers that could be codified in something as simple as the old ACLU 'Bust Card'. Remember those?

http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-immigrants-rights-racial-justice/know-your-rights-what-do-if-you

I will say this (and I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice)...just some random thoughts.

No one's life becomes easier or simpler after engaging with the police subsequent to defending yourself with violence. No one. If you think you're going to give your version of events, get a wink and a nod, and that's that, think again. The more violent the results, the more damage or injuries sustained, the less likely it is that you will be sleeping in your own bed that evening.

The police are not your enemy. Their job is to investigate crime, and they do this by collecting witness information, securing the crime scene, collecting evidence, and interviewing suspects, victims, and witnesses. They write reports and book suspects. They do not file charges, and while their reports carry weight with the local prosecuting attorney, they do not directly bring charges against anyone.

There are no magic words you can say which invoke special rights and privileges that you did not have before you said them. Many people think this; many people are wrong. If you, for example, say "I am not saying anything until I speak to my attorney," the police cannot question you any further. That does not mean you are free to leave at that point. It may mean that they will now arrest and process you and let the prosecuting attorney figure out whether or not to bring charges. But by the same token, the police are NOT required to read you your 'Miranda Warning' before asking you questions or at the time you are arrested. That's another common myth. The police have to read you your "Miranda Warning" rights when they suspect you of a crime and want to ask you questions about that crime, not before. So if they believe (at first) that you are a witness or a victim, they do not have to read you your rights, and YES, your statements can still be used against you - that is called an 'unwarned admission' and it's perfectly acceptable in court for the most part. I say this because we used to get a HUGE LAUGH at people who would insist that we had to let them go because we 'forgot to read them their rights'. Sorry, you saw too many cop shows on TV. I don't have to read you jack.

You might consider obtaining and carrying a AAA Club Membership card. They come with a built in Bail Card that is accepted by most police agencies in lieu of bail up to a certain amount (based on state and crime you're accused of). Nice to have if you're unable to reach a friend or family member and might otherwise spend some time in the clink, waiting for someone to come bail you out.

Know the self-defense laws of your state. There really is no excuse for martial artists not to know what is and is not permissible. If you don't know what the law is where you live, and you train in case you have to engage in self-defense, you're handicapping yourself.

Do not assume you are in the right. You may see it that way, but 'he had it coming' or 'he called my wife a whore' and such things are not actually legal reasons to punch someone out. I say this only because I've run into more than one person who felt they were in the right legally because of the person they slugged called their wife a name or said something really offensive to them.

If you are, in fact, arrested for a crime, it may be in your best interest to stop talking at that point until you can speak to an attorney. You will NOT be able to talk your way out of the handcuffs. Once they are on, they stay on. There is nothing you can 'explain' at that point which is going to change anyone's mind - do not try, you'll just dig yourself in deeper.

When making a police statement, do not lie, do not exaggerate, and do not say things like "there I was, MINDING MY OWN BUSINESS, when..." Believe me, every guilty person in the entire world who has ever lived says EXACTLY that when arrested. "Minding my own business" is code for "I am a guilty bastard." Just sayin'...

Stay calm. Think about what actually happened. Take note of bystanders, if you can, get their contact information while waiting for police. Witnesses do not generally come forward after they leave the scene, but if contacted later by police, they'll generally give a statement. Try to take note of the time. For later reference, the weather, light or dark, and other considerations can be important factors later.

Don't lie. Lying about small things tells police one thing - that you're a liar. Even on small things, do not lie.
Don't brag. Your ego is not your friend in these situations, tough guy.
Don't volunteer information unless you are asked (in general).
Victims are scared. Let this be understood by the wise.

Do not brag about your martial arts skills. In fact, there is no particular reason to mention them at all, unless asked by police. It cannot do you any good and might do you some harm in terms of what the police decide really happened. There are enough people being arrested right now for brawling that claim 'MMA' training (Google for it, it's epidemic) that the police may not look with favor on your 15th degree sokeship of hoojumboojum and whatnot. Do not lie; but there is no need to volunteer information that is not important to their investigation.

That's about all I can think of at the moment.

If something happened and I had to give a statement to the police, it might go something like this:

My wife and I were leaving the restaurant around 9PM. It was dark and the parking lot lights were not all working. We were approached by two men in the parking lot, the men you see over there being treated by the EMT. One of them stood to the front of us and asked for a light, and the other circled around us to the left without saying anything. I told the man that I don't smoke and did not have a light. He then reached in his pocket and took out a knife and demanded my wallet. His partner was standing behind us, I could not see what he was doing.

I put my hands up and told him I was going to reach for my wallet, which I did. I removed my wallet and dropped it on the ground in front of me, and my wife and I started to back up as the man with the knife came closer to pick the wallet up. However, the man behind us must have also had a knife, because I felt the sharp point of something in my back as I retreated. I turned to avoid the knife and when I saw the blade, I was afraid that we were about to be killed. So I kicked the man behind us in the groin as hard as I could. He fell over. I turned back to the original attacker and saw he was advancing towards us with the knife, so I kicked him in the groin as well, as hard as I could. He also fell over, but it looked like he was trying to get up and he still had the knife, so I was still afraid he was going to kill us. So I kicked him in the head as hard as I could, and when he fell over, I stomped on his hand until he released the knife. I then picked up the knives and called 911 on my cell phone and waited for help to arrive.

That was just a general statement. I noted what happened, when it happened, the conditions under which it happened. I mentioned the weapons, and how they made me feel (very important, self-defense often becomes legal when the victim is legitimately in fear of their life or great bodily injury). I said what I did. I did not embellish or ascribe motives to the suspects. I did not describe my awesome kicking abilities, honed by years of practice in the dojo, or give their Japanese names. None of that is relevant, and all of it could raise suspicions about me. Not to mention, once it is known you are trained (if it ever comes to that), it will prime a defense attorney to say "If you're so good, why didn't you just kick the knife out of their hands, instead of driving their genitals up into their necks?" Don't brag - nobody cares in the first place, and it could do you harm in the second place.