Sport And TMA....Again

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by MJS, Nov 23, 2013.

  1. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Yeah I was curious about the biting and who bit or tried to bite, Royce.
     
  2. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    He was looking at about 300 years at one stage.
     
  3. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    I remember being taught (by the founder of our school) the first one in the video (the head twist one) at a grading a while back. It would take a large amount of force to break someones neck like that but it is an excellent controlling technique (where the head goes the body follows) and not one you would want to try to resist, you either go down or forget about turning your head left and right for a few weeks.
     
  4. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Right not something you can train at full speed. Not something you would use in a comp either
     
  5. Jean Marais

    Jean Marais Yellow Belt

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    To me the sport is a form of simulation. Not bad all things considered. The simulation has to fit the art though. Also, you don't need to test every aspect in the same simulation. For the effectiveness of eye gouging, I would try a dummy, not a person...maybe not as realistic, but we have limits. Nontheless, simulation is an essencial tool for developement, both of an art and of personal abillity. If you want to simulate a fight between two different arts, it will be tricky to come up with a simulation that does not favour one or the other in a reasonably safe way. Anyway, I find testing your art's effectiveness is an important way to be continously improoving it and yourself. You may not be able to test all elements, however more often than not, you will learn something that will advance you.

    Some TMA don't "participate" in some of the simulations against other styles, but it doesn't mean that they don't run simulations at all. Finding a common measuring stick simulation that does not hamper some aspects of an art, will probably never happen. There is no such thing as the perfect simulation. We do the best we can and learn as much as we can from those tests.
     
  6. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    Are you suggesting that Hughes didn't dominate Gracie in every possible way during that fight, that maybe it was just a lucky punch that took him out?
     
  7. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Depending on the object of the fight. If it is to win a 'sporting contest' it is one thing. If it is to 'destroy' an opponent, it is totally different. The fact that UFC fighters were not trying to kill or permanently disable means that there were unwritten rules as well as the stated rules.

    The punches and kicks were real but the elbows were restricted. As I have stated previously, my most preferred technique in a life threatening situation would be striking with the point of the elbow. Its potential to damage is why it is against MMA rules.

    Most fights start standing up. The grapplers strength is to clinch and the strikers objective is yo maintain distance. I would suggest of those two it is easier to achieve the clinch.

    I would like to see your reasoning! Wrestling starts standing and judo starts standing. Why is MMA different.

    Unless the person shooting is highly trained they are likely to get really badly injured against a reasonably trained martial artist. Ballen's post of Tom Hill demonstrates what I mean.

    Obviously 'vague idea' was tongue firmly placed to the outer region of the oral cavity. But 'real' fight still needs to be defined. If by 'real' it is meant to go all out to win a competition, yes it is real. If by 'real' you mean to injure or totally destroy an opponent, perhaps not so real. As I said, it depends on intent.

    In a sporting environment.

    What he said! :)

    Amen Brother! :cheers:

    I don't believe there are any dirty tricks. In RBSD there are just techniques. For example I was taught a kick to the groin in my early days. Kin geri to those who know Goju. I barely mention it nowadays. The chance of it doing anything in a real fight is low. If I am in the situation to attack the groin it will be a shin kick. Attacking the eyes is a valid technique, not so much to actually strike the eyes, bonus if that happens, but to elicit the flinch response and get the opponent's arm where I want it. If I am in a choke, sure I will go for the eyes. Spitting does nothing, but it is a distraction. Hair pulling, sure. It can be used to control your opponent's position. As for biting. Whether or not Bas actually said what he is quoted as saying or whether that is folk law, biting may well have a place in self defence. If you are in a choke and you can bite it is a valid distraction.

    Regardless of who beat who, UFC never demonstrated one art was better than another. It demonstrated that, at one particular point of time, one fighter was better than another.

    Then let's leave it that way. ;) What you don't know won't hurt you. What I teach has no place in sport anyway and FWIW there are numerous neck cranks in each kata.

    Actually no. It takes little effort to break the neck. There are certain things that I will not post on an open forum that change the dynamic.

    Exactly!
     
  8. TFP

    TFP Blue Belt

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    I see what you mean here and it makes sense to you because you have a lack of knowledge of grappling." Here is the problem....... You're assuming the "grappler" is on the bottom in those positions. In reality he grappler is most likely the one on too in North South and on top in side control.

    So now rethink those positions from the idea of a grappler taking a striker down, getting on top of him and holding him down while knees to the head are legal. It's kinda terrifying.
     
  9. TFP

    TFP Blue Belt

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    Thing is, Royce wasn't even in the top 3 or 4 in his family at the time, and here IMO is the big difference, Royce had those qualities over the other fighters because he had to a and tons of real, live combat experience. His ***** was tested and tried and he was battle tested. He knew how to fight and what worked in a fight. No fancy forms and flows for him, just real fighting.
     
  10. TFP

    TFP Blue Belt

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    Thanks, yeah that is 100% false IMO. As pure arts go, grappling has been proven time and time again, by a large margin to dominate the striking arts.

    you take a pure striker vs a pure grappler and the grappler dominates because the striker cannot control the distance and has little to no know leg of the clinch and ground.

    again I love striking arts, but they are inferior to grappling arts IMO.
     
  11. TFP

    TFP Blue Belt

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    Lol, I'm saying Hughes dominated the whole fight, standing and ground and did so even while Royce Gracie cheated by using illegal performance enhancing drugs which makes that do inaction all the more impressive!
     
  12. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Now we are back to the OP. It's only taken 89 pages. :)

    Fancy forms are for competition. Nothing more nothing less. Anyone that says that it demonstrates technique, balance etc. is missing the point of Kata. Kata can look messy and still be performed well, just as you can drive a dirty car, just a dirty car won't win a car show.

    Throwing in forms like this demonstrates your ignorance of TMAs. We have had threads discussing kata so I won't waste time going deeply into it here. Suffice to say, in karate, kata are fighting systems. Every technique is designed to be a finishing move, if that move fails the next technique is your fail safe and so on. Kata is designed to show you how to disable or kill your attacker (and don't throw up the 'more deadly' stuff). That is just the way it is. What happens in MMA might be 'real' fighting in a sporting sense. Kata gives you the tools to fight in a real life or death situation, providing you have learned to use it that way. To most people kata are just what you see performed in competition and what you need to grade. If that is what your training teaches you then forget kata as it is a total waste of time, or get yourself a better teacher.
    :asian:
     
  13. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    So you don't think shamrock was tried and tested? All of the hard work and trading is part of it but natural ability rises to the top.
     
  14. TFP

    TFP Blue Belt

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    Thanks
     
  15. TFP

    TFP Blue Belt

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    Not sure what you mean here. Yes Ken was somewhat seasoned, but again he was a grappler and a fighter. There is no absolute, I think in Kens case he was out grappled by Royce and GJJ's system. Ken was a much, much better natural fighter, but Royces system (GJJ) and his experience got him thru that first fight with a win, after that Ken's mind failed him. To put it simply, Royce was in Ken's head big time and Ken never recovered mentally from that first defeat.
     
  16. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    :bs:


    In the UFC maybe, in real life highly debatable. Define pure striker. Grappling is fine and good and should be a part of any well rounded martial art, but all the grappling in the world will not help you if you get knocked out trying to go for a clinch. If you think that no striker can control the distance when faced with a grappler you are sadly mistaken.

    :bs:

    You know what they say about opinions?
     
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  17. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    The fights usually get restarted when nothing starts happening on the ground and the audience starts to get bored. If the grappler can not finish their opponent on the ground withing a few seconds then the grappling is inefficient.
     
  18. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    Leverage for one, forcing the neck to move in a way it is not designed another. My point is it would not be very likely for the neck to be broken by moving it in a direction it was designed to do by accident. If it was then there would be a lot more accidental deaths and serious injuries in professional and amateur wrestling. It would definitely not be as easy as it is in the movies. You would have to do it on purpose and with a lot of force. Still something to be carefully practiced though.
     
  19. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    This is not the place to discuss the how, but yes, we practise it slowly and carefully.
    :asian:
     
  20. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, mainly for the reasons that RTKDCMB already listed.123
     

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