What is real Hapkido?

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by Dwi Chugi, Sep 22, 2012.

  1. Instructor

    Instructor Master Black Belt

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    I don't know much about lineages and all that stuff, that's for historians.

    I know an outside wrist lock applied properly creates a whole lot of torque and is extremely effective. I love Hapkido and I find it best to steer clear of Hapkido Politics.

    Real Hapkido is about the style and doing it to the best of your ability. Constantly trying to improve. Honor your teacher and try to make your Hapkido a credit to the name.
     
  2. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

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    So is rd8256 telling us to; hang up our "hapkido" black belts, close down our "hapkido" schools, call our master's and grandmaster's (some of whiched trained with Dojunim Choi himself) and tell them to do the same because according to him (rd8256) unless we are currently under Chang Dojunim; we are not doing real Hapkido?

    From what I understand (from this forum), Grandmaster Chang is not even teaching right now. No one has heard from him in years, am I mistaking?

    The term Hapkido is used so much that it has taken on a non-trademark statis like karate, judo, jiujitsu, jujitsu and kung-fu has. Furthermore, the history behind it is becoming more and more contraversial amoung other respected arts due to forums like this. No one can even agree if Choi studied Aiki-jujitsu or was a spectator in Takeda's classes; if he was an adopted son of Takeda or a house boy. Who coined the name "Hapkido" or who put this in or who put that in. This is why other martial arts systems look down on Hapkido and think what we teach is $#!+.

    I know this for one thing, I know "TRUE" HAPKIDO Works. I know if you learned it the correct way, it will not fail you when your life depends on it. I know Chang, Dojunim is not getting any younger and if he does not unite this art soon, it will be truely lost as a united art.

    I know my grandmaster is a direct decendent from Choi's Hapkido. I know my master is a direct decendent from my grandmaster's Hapkido. I know I am a direct decendent from both of my Master's Hapkido.

    I know there is a lot of great hapkido out there! I know there are some trolls on this forum that are here to get a rise out of us so I take these comments with a grain of salt. But incase rd8256 is actually being serious, please try to get your facts straight before you post. If you do; even if we do not agree with you, we will respect you.
     
  3. bushido

    bushido Yellow Belt

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    I would think that RD is just trying to assimilate some knowledge, and organize it in a manner that makes some sense to him...nothing wrong with that, or with it being "corrected" either, in as much as any of us can correct certain information in regards to HKD

    Will Chang unite HKD...no, I can't see that happening. It would take a lot of time and effort to make that happen, and a person with more time and "pull" in the HKD community. The problem, as I see it, with unification, is that there is no incentive for everone to congregate around any one organization. Really, what do you get offered?
    You pay your yearly dues, then you are hounded to contribute to this and that fund...pay extra for this or that...granted, it is the same in most any other organization or union, but what is your return on investment?
    You get to use their logo and associate yourself with their name...as long as you are in good standing of course. You can attend their seminars for a fee...go to HQ for gradings, for a fee, and of course travel expenses for you and your students...But what else do you get?

    No...there has to be more. Like group Club insurance, access to group attorneys, business advisors to help small or new club owners to expand and prosper, information data banks that could be used to further public knowledge of HKD, community help and awareness programs, regular owner and instructor seminars, an internal structure designed around helping its members prosper, etc. And, to boot, you would need to have a very recognizable and acknowledged head at the table that others would yield to, and that in itself would be nearly impossible...
    Will this happen...no. And the reason is valid too...no one wants to put up the type of front money necessary to get a corporation of that magnitude off the ground, just to see if others would follow.

    that has always been my take on our unification any ways...
     
  4. zDom

    zDom Senior Master

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    Based on everything I have ever heard or read, it is my understanding that hapkido has never, EVER been "a united art."

    Ever.
     
  5. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

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    I have to agree with you and Bushido on that. The term Hapkido is a lot like the term Jujitsu (Jiujitsu), Karate, or Kung Fu. It is so generically used that I don't think even if Grandmaster Chang came out to try to unite the art, most high ranking masters are doing their own Kwans and most if not all those masters would not conform to one Kwan.

    I think most Kwans are very comfortable on there way they have been teaching over the last two and a half decades. I would go do seminars with Master Chang if he came out, but I don't see me switching to a united Kwan.
     
  6. bushido

    bushido Yellow Belt

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    lol, yeah, after WW2, EVERY THING was Karate, did'nt matter what it was, lol, very few new any different. Even growing up, it wasn't much different for me, and any kind of knowledge was hard to come by. Soldiers returning from vietnam had a more diverse out look on the arts, and differences began to be understood.
    I would have to say though, that before the internet, the martial arts magazines, though largely controlled by sponsors, were the widest source of information in the early '70's for me...I remember first finding out about Stephen Hayes through Black Belt I think it was, and booking a summer camp with him in '87 or 88...it was an opportunity I never would have had otherwise...
    And then the internet came along, lol, and with it the politics as every one struggled for their market share as it became more widely available.
    Now a days...information is taken for granted, and misinformation flourishes, as it gets manipulated for personal gain :(
    My granpappy used to say "believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see". Today, even what you see is greatly suspect, and believing even 50% would be difficult :(

    Ha! that veered way off subject, lol

    Any ways, after all that, I'd have to say that I agree with Shelby too...I can't see me or mine aligning with a different governing body either, and suspect that to be true for most.
     
  7. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Reading through the various histories, it all boils down to whom you wish to believe. But the underlying theme is basically what you've stated above. Early in the history it seems various organizations sprang up and then closed down. I would suspect in an effort to garner more rank for some individuals. Those that claim high ranks now certainly wouldn't wish to march to any one else's banner. As mentoned, they are quite comfortable as it is so I just can't see HKD ever having a unified, central banner that all or even most would support. Too many people would want to be the chief rather than a supporting indian.

    And maybe that is a tell-tale indication as to their ture goals and intentions. A 'true' martial artist (of any martial art) is suppose to be humble and loyal to the art. They 'should' be more than willing to do whatever is necessary to unify and promote the art. Even if it meant supporting someone else, better qualified, to be the chief and willingly take a de-motion in rank (if necessary) to solidify the art.
     
  8. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    Maybe a good explanation of what a united art is would help. I know my GM used to talk about how the other GM would get together to discuss what standards would be. The president of the association also had power to allow GM to test and promote BB. Once the headquarters building was being rebuilt and it was taking longer than normal. After several months of waiting, all the GM were complaining and were then authorized to conduct their own tests with their own masters. That was what occured for my 1st Dan BB. It was also during such a meeting that the decision was made to move knife defense from red belt to after 1st Dan. There was also discussion on having up to 10th Dan, and what the standards would be. I know my GM had decided not to do so due to the papers he would have to do, and he figured he already knew all there was out there. Of course he was in his 70s by then and there probably wasn't much he didn't know. I think they eventially decided 8th Dan was as high as they needed to go after all, but I am not positive. That was from the Korean Hapkido Federation/Association in Seoul Korea. I slash Federation/Association because as I have explained before, my certificates and card have different words. It never occurred to me to question that. I accepted what I got from my GM.
     
  9. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

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    Ok Jon, here I am taking you to task...of course you have to care about lineage - why call what you do Hapkido? It comes from somewhere, taught by someone, to someone else, then to you...it matters. Otherwise, what we are doing is just fighting...


    Politics and lineage are different - lineage matters, politics is just fun...

    Yes, by knowing the history, lineage and Founder of the art.

    Good post!
     
  10. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

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    Whether Chang Dojunim tries to unite Hapkido or not remains to be seen.

    I disagree that Hapkido is a generic name, I am working to not make it that. It is the name of the art of Choi Dojunim. It would be nice if we could get to that simple start -that Hapkido came from a single source - just Choi Dojunim and no one else....
     
  11. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

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    You have said a mouthful here - but I believe that the idea that "true" martial artists are supposed to be humble seems a western idea to me - Hapkido is a fighting art, if you didn't enter the dojang with some good home training, humility came from a good kicking! If most had this humility, the vast breakdown of Hapkido would not have happened.
     
  12. Dwi Chugi

    Dwi Chugi Orange Belt

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    I really wish you could make it where the term "Hapkido" was not a generic name. I was in contact with the US Patent and Trademark Office last year getting "MuSool Hapkido" registered as a trade mark. My attorney told me that the term "Hapkido" was like "coffee". I could trademark "MuSool Hapkido" used together but not just the term "Hapkido". The example they used was "Starbucks Coffee". Starbucks could trademark their name with coffee at the end, just not the term "coffee" itself.

    Hwarangdo founders trademarked that martial art so only "approved" black belts through their federation can use the term "Hwarangdo" as their art name. Unless they allow their trademark to expire, that term will always be reserved for them.

    This pass weekend, one of my competitor's that teaches Taekwondo and Gracie Jiujitsu was in our local town parade. His business card now has that he teaches "Hapkido". I know for a fact that he knows a few wrist locks from his Taekwondo, a few throws from Jiujitsu and now is teaching those few wrist locks/throws as Hapkido.

    Does it run me crazy? YES! Do I want to call him out on it? YES! Can I? NO! Not without setting myself up for a lawsuit. When my students asked me about his "Hapkido" class (it was news for all of us), I simply encouraged them to ask his linage back to Grandmaster Choi if they ever see him in public.

    One of the other schools in town, that I get along with, claims that they teach Hapkido techniques in their Jiujitsu classes but they give rank in Jiujitsu not Hapkido. I do not agree with that either but at least he is telling everyone that this in a hapkido technique but we are not a hapkido school. BTW, his first master was a hapkido master that could trace his linage back to Grandmaster Choi, this guy just did not get his black belt in Hapkido so I think that is why he does it this way.

    When someone is seeking out Hapkido at my Dojang, I encourage them to ask as many questions as possible to whom ever they train with and their linage back to the Grandmaster. I personally fell into the linage back to Grandmaster Choi by accident. I had no idea how important it was when I was a kid. I am glad it worked out. When I sought out Jiujitsu, I made sure the linage went back to the Gracie family. Now I know better.

    All I can do is educate people and try to make them understand that it is important to trace their roots back to the founder. That is all any of us can do, legally.
     
  13. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

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    The bottom line is that the only reason Hapkido is accepted as a "generic" term is because too many people let it slide that way.

    The start is to accept that the Founder of Hapkido is Choi Dojunim. That's the start. Then it is NOT just tracing lineage back to the Choi Dojunim, but at what level does that trace go back?

    For example, and only as a example; (and I am listing names only so as to avoid "titles" mistaken as names)
    Seo In Sun, of the Hanminjok Hapkido Association, and World Kido Federation traces his Hapkido lineage back to Choi Dojunim, as a 1st dan.
    Chung Kee Tae, of the Canadian Hapkido Association traces his lineage back to Choi Dojunim as a 7th dan.
    Rim, Jung Bae, Of Rim's Hapkido traces his lineage back to Choi Dojunim as a 7th Dan.
    Ji Han Jae, of Sin Moo, traces his lineage back to Choi Dojunim as a 3rd Dan.

    So it is really pretty easy to get a hierarchy going, this can also be done with the dates of rank as well, which is also quite interesting, but it is relevant to get the highest rank that can be directly attained from Choi Dojunim.

    And I do not see any legal issue with calling out someone that claims to teach Hapkido, but is not. THey are making the claim, they should be able to back it up.

    Nice post Shelby.
     
  14. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Well now, that kinda leaves out those folks that got their HKD black belts at a TKD school after a weekend seminar. That isn't very politically correct or tolerant. I'm assuming they earned the TKD rank and didn't just buy it also. And they did take a full 16 hours of HKD, minus lunch and water breaks. And they did take a complete and comprehensive test based on what was learned over the weekend. And most importantly the check cleared on both the seminar AND the belt test. And they might not have even had to start at 1st Dan as it was all based on their TKD black belt rank. Heck, they could be seniors to a lot of Hapkidoin here on the board. And we had a bunch of TKD people defend this as possibly legitimate and well, we shouldn't judge the Korean GM's doing it as it really isn't our concern anyway.

    So...:uhyeah:123
     

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