What is your hapkido lineage?

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by matt.m, May 29, 2008.

  1. terrylamar

    terrylamar Blue Belt

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    Choi, Yong Sul > Hwang, Jong Yeon > Hall, John P. > Me.

    I do not know much about Hwang, Jong Yeon. I remember seeing his name as a student of Choi, Yong Sul in a magazine oabout the history of Hapkido many years ago.

    I have a certificate issued by The Korea Hapkido Yeon Mu Kwan. Does anyone know anything about Jong Yeon Hwang, or his organization?
     
  2. Traditionalist

    Traditionalist Orange Belt

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    I don't want to ruffle any feahers but a lot of what Myung claims about himself is "according to Myung". He's excellent on Hapkido history and I definitely recommend his 'Hapkido' book for that. I know for a fact the some of the people he claims were his instructor he never studied under. His philosophy is if you believe in someone teachings or along that lines then you can claim they were your instructor. Which is bogus. I like Gene Lebell and I love what he teaches but I would never claim he was my instructor. I just wanted to through that in to show we can't always believe what we read especially if someone is writing about themselves.
     
  3. zDom

    zDom Senior Master

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    Ain't that the truth. Especially when it comes to books on hapkido history.
     
  4. howard

    howard Brown Belt

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    Just a moment...

    Isn' he one of the ones who used to talk about Hapkido being 2,000 years old and passed down through generations of monks, or something equally nonsensical?
     
  5. Traditionalist

    Traditionalist Orange Belt

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    I meant Kimm. I was so wrapped up in Myong I put him down but Kimm actually wrote the Hapkido bible. Sorry for my mistake.
     
  6. Traditionalist

    Traditionalist Orange Belt

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    He doesn't say Hapkido is 2000 years old he talks about the orgins of Hapkido and what in history grew to be Hapkido and the Korean history.
     
  7. howard

    howard Brown Belt

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    What does he say about the Korean history?

    I ask because the original history of Choi Yong Sul's art is Japanese. All the kicking, meditation, etc. came later, from Choi's students. Choi himself learned a form of Aikijujutsu in Japan. The core locking/throwing/pinning techniques of Hapkido are Japanese in origin.
     
  8. spud

    spud Yellow Belt

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    Let me see if this is correct, someone posts a new thread under any title you like in the HKD section of any forum & the following "rules" fall into place every single time.

    1) Thread is started.

    2) Regardless of starting point ends in, historical, political or personal flame war.

    3) War intensity steadily increases.

    4) One side or the other either leaves thread, has thread locked, or continually brings other issues in to build a case which is then countered in the same manner.

    5) Several other people try to be to voice of reason to either become slightly crispy around the edges or befriended by one side or the other (he's on my team).

    6) In the end everyone agrees to disagree & all concerned have a group hug.


    Did i miss out anything?

    Sorry if this comes across a little sarcastic but personally i don't give a rats who did what when with whom. After almost 30 years of hearing this political one up man ship i care about one thing, what happens on the matt's, end of story. The Koreans have no one to blame but themselves that the history of this fantastic arts is nothing but a joke in the eyes of the general martial arts community.

    I have more meaningful conversations & get more respectful comments regarding HKD from people who do other arts & who actually hold the style in higher regard than from HKD practitioners themselves.

    We talk about the politics of the past yet what are we doing today if not repeating history in all its many glorious flavors?

    Time for this art to grow up, step out of the naughty corner & take its rightful place amongst it peers in the martial arts community as a collective.

    This is not directed towards any one single person but please feel free to take it personally if YOU decide to do so.

    Now please feel free to try & flame me to death, after so many years i think i have a layer of abspestos rather than skin anyway, so good luck that.
     
  9. Traditionalist

    Traditionalist Orange Belt

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    I got that book at home. I see if I can get some exact quotes and post them. You are right though that Choi first learned martial arts in Japan and used a lot of what he learned their to create Hapkido.

    And my comment to Spud is whether some of us are fuzzy on the history or know a little more we are all Hapkido and very proud of it. So our debating is more like a family just trying to get our story told. And you should care about the history of Hapkido (if that is your art and first love) because it gives you what the art is about and shows why Hapkido is a dominant art even if we are in the naughty corner. We hapkido, like most other arts, think our art is the best and will stick by one another even if we do disagree on a few points. And I think being a Korean art, especially Hapkido, we don't want to be a collective with other arts. Why should we when we have everything already. Kicking, punching, throwing, falling, grappling, arm and joint locks, weapons, defense against weapons, I'm sure there is more but hopefull you get the point.
     
  10. spud

    spud Yellow Belt

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    Hello & thank you for your comments Traditionalist,

    I think you may have quickly read my post & not had enough time to digest it properly prior to putting your thoughts together, we all do it from time to time so no biggy. I’ll try to explain a little better in future & also clarify a few points you commented on in response to the above.

    “Fuzzy on the history”,
    There is no definitive consensus on the history to date that I’m aware of & I think most of us are pretty much agreed no that one point. Each person needs to decide for themselves what they believe to be to most accurate sources & move on from their.

    “Proud of it”,
    Personal or collective pride in the art is one thing but personally I feel ashamed when it comes to the state of affairs regarding record keeping of & or reported history of our art, it is a total train wreck.

    “Debating”,
    Once again depending on the individuals point of view what one person feels is debating another may feel of something more or less extreme. Again personally I think this habit of “intense debating” over every little point is one of the main reasons HKD threads are far & few between when compared to most (but not all) the other MA sections in all the forums I visit.

    “Family”,
    Well I don’t think we’ll ever become classed as the Brady bunch but from what I’ve seen we come close to either the Osborne’s or the Adams (tongue in cheek, sorry couldn’t resist).

    “Should care about the history”,
    If you care to direct me to the one true source of the history of our art wonderful I would dearly love it & hold it with the utmost respect & reverence. Until such time I will continue to devote my time & efforts to what happens on the Matts as that is what the art is about in my personal view.

    “If that is your art & first love”,
    HapKiDo is indeed the art I love the most & have spent over 20 years teaching it with a passion, however I’m not one to blindly go around saying or thinking because I love it first it is the best, be all & end all as I love all the arts & have respect for each one. I can at least indulge my passion for accurate historical records within many of the other arts.

    “Dominant art”,
    Sorry you lost me on that one. I would need further clarification to be able to put that into the context you were aiming for.

    “Collective”,
    When I say collective MA community I mean to me we are all “brothers” in the arts, we are all equal, and not that HKD should or needs to add anything further to what is already part of the system.
    Personally I don’t consider HKD as the best art based on I do that style, I grew out of that mind set long ago once I started trying & training in many of the other arts available. Each & everyone has some wonderful aspects as well as some weakness however I stuck with HKD even after doing many other styles so that should tell you what my feelings are on which is my preferred art.

    Hopefully this has answered a few questions although I’m sure it will also make some things a little more confusing but such is the problem of written communication on forums, it’s just so easy to be taken out of context or take others out of context also.
     
  11. matt.m

    matt.m Senior Master

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    Kwan Jang, I told pop you called him a Jedi Master. He just laughed and said to tell you hello. I told him after the Aug 2, tourney you sent your sympathies and he said "You were the nicest guy to ever get unfairly dumped on." I agree. But that is a total different personal conversation.

    Funny thing about this whole debate is, no one can agree and everyone has to be right. I will stick with what Lee Hyun Park told the 2 jedi's GM Hildebrand and my dad.

    Lee never lied, he just flat told it like it was and well I used to sit in the back with Ricky Park, his son, and watch his dad teach my dad. So ya know, people are going to believe what they want and that is fine. However, the thing is this: I know the truth, period end of story.

    After all the best hapkidoists are the ones you have never heard of in Blackbelt or any M.A. magazine. Nope the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be IMO are Lee H. Park, Dad, and Charles Hildebrand. Period end of story. I did ok in Greco and Judo but I will never reach the level of those men. It isn't about the shiny medals it is about the lifestyle of the person. So, dad taught me humility as a child and well people like Lee, Dad and Charles never talk about what they accomplished or can do. Humility is their best feature.

    They are all Yoda in the Jedi universe. I am only Luke, meaning I have the best of intentions but make too many what I would consider mistakes. It is easy to use the past to help decision make for the present, however I have a problem sometimes letting ego get in front of the id. I will defend my students to a fault, however when they make mistakes I make them apologize. However, I will never ask a student do something I wouldn't do at all period.

    Oh, by the way Kevin, I am not entirely fond of your little quips and banter. I will say this. Let it go. I am a competition battle test champion in Greco and Judo. I went to the Olympic trials in 96, lost in the 3rd round. I had a broke rib and taped shoulder and tried anyway.

    I have been living in and around the hapkido lifestyle since I could walk and well I would appreciate if you quit with the little stabs. They are certainly not appreciated.

    Oh and Choi himself in an interview back in 82 said the following "I got off the train in Taegue." This is where Suh-Bok Sub was the grainery owner a Judo 2nd dan. He built a dojang for Choi to begin teaching.

    So, I don't have to go to Korea pal, I am a PanAm champ in two events and World European Champion. I amassed a combination of 51 gold a 4 silver while competiting. 33 gold in judo 2 silver, 18 gold in Greco and 2 silver. Oh and by the way I am a great historian and geneologist by trade. I believe in what is true is true. So let's recount. Lee passed his knowledge to my dad and Charles Hildebrand. So I know Lee's character since I knew him for many years. He would rather get his head chopped off than to lie. So you know I am done debating with you and your crafty banter. And Kevin stop being a "Master-Baiter", yep I said it.

    Not to add insult to injury here is something of interest:
    Hapkido Grandmaster
    Choi, Yong Sul
    (1904-1986)

    Mr. Choi, the founder and Grandmaster of Korean Hapkido, discussed his personal history in an interview given during his visit to the United States in June of 1982.
    The following interview was published by courtesy of Joseph K. Sheya.
    Copyright by Joseph K. Sheya
    . All rights reserved. No part of this interview may be used or reproduced for any reason by any means without written permission.
    www.sheyashapkido.com
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Mr. Choi, under what circumstances did you come to live in Japan?
    • When I was a child I lived in the village of Yong Dong in Choong Chung Province, Korea. At this time there were many Japanese people in my region because of the Japanese occupation of Korea. I became acquainted with a Mr. Morimoto, who was a Japanese businessman and candy store owner. Morimoto had no sons. When the time came for him to return to Japan he abducted me and took me with him to Japan, intending that I would become his son. I did not like this man and because of my constant protest and crying he abandoned me in the town of Moji soon after we came to Japan. From Moji, I traveled alone to Osaka. I soon gave myself up to despair and while crying and wandering aimlessly, I was picked up by the police. When the authorities found out that I had no family in Japan, they arranged for me to be cared for at a Buddhist temple. I lived there for about two years under the care of the monk Kintaro, Wadanabi.
    How old were you when you were abducted?
    • I think about 8 years old.
    What circumstances placed you in the home of Takeda, Sokaku?
    • While living in the temple, I was fascinated by murals of battles and paintings of famous martial arts scenes displayed throughout the temple. When the time came, Wadanabi asked me what direction I wanted my life to take. I immediately pointed to a scene on the wall depicting the martial arts and said this is what I want to be. Kintaro, Wadanabi was a close friend of Takeda, Sokaku and arranged my introduction to him. Takeda, Sokaku liked me and feeling great sympathy for my situation, decided to adopt me. Upon my adoption he gave me the Japanese name Asao, Yoshida. I was about 11 years old at this time.
    In what city was the Buddhist temple that was your home?
    • Kyoto.
    In what area was Takeda, Sokaku’s home and dojang (school) located?
    • His home and school were located on Shin Su Mountain in the area of Akeda.
    What was the nature of your training under Takeda, Sokaku?
    • Takeda, Sokaku was the head of Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu. I lived in his home and learned under his personal direction for over 30 years. I was his constant student, and for twenty years of my training, I was secluded in his mountain home.
    Takeda was the teacher of the Japanese royal family. Were you personally involved in teaching the royal family?
    • Yes, at that time I was my teachers’s assistant in all of his instruction. While in Tokyo, we also taught high ranking government officials within the palace circle. Also, we traveled to various parts of Japan and taught select groups of people.
    Did you ever leave Japan with Master Takeda for any exhibitions or teaching outside of Japan?
    • Yes, when I was about 28 years old it was arranged by politicians for my teacher and his most outstanding students to travel to Hawaii in order to give an exhibition tour.
    What was your personal status on this tour?
    • I was the leader of the exhibition team under the direction of my teacher.
    How many people were on the exhibition team and can you recall the names of any of the participants?
    • At the time of the Hawaiian tour there were five of us; Takeda, Sokaku, myself (Asao, Yoshida), Jintaro, Abida and two others whose names I cannot at this time recall.
    When you returned from Hawaii were there any significant changes in your life?
    • No, we continued to tour and teach and at the same time I continued to learn through Master Takeda’s instruction.
    How was your life affected by the outbreak of World War II?
    • World War II changed things in many ways. My teacher and I worked for the government by capturing military deserters that would hide in the mountains near our home. We would return these men, unharmed, to the authorities. The most significant changes happened toward the end of the war. Japan was losing the war and in a last desperation effort the government instituted a special military draft that called up most of the prominent martial artists of the time. These highly trained people were conscripted into special guerrilla-type units that were dispersed throughout the war zone. All of the inner circle of Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu were drafted except Master Takeda and myself. Most were killed in the final fighting of the war.
    Why were you not drafted along with the others?
    • I was going to be drafted but Takeda, Sokaku intervened. Through his status and influence, he had me hospitalized for minor surgery. This stopped the process of my conscription and prevented me from being drafted. He prevented me from being put into the war because he felt that if I was killed Daito Ryu Aiki-Jutsu would be lost in its completed form upon his death.
    How many separate techniques had Takeda, Sokaku developed and mastered in his system?
    • 3808.
    How many of these techniques have you personally mastered?
    • Shortly before he died, my teacher informed me that I was the only student that he had schooled in all of his secrets and techniques.
    Do you know the circumstances of Takeda, Sokaku's death?
    • Yes, he ended his life by refusing to eat.
    Why did he do that?
    • Japan had never before been defeated in war. Takeda, Sokaku felt that a great shame and loss of face had been perpetrated on his ancestors by Japan's defeat at the hands of the Allies. Being a man of leadership, he felt a strong personal responsibility in this defeat. Becase of this strong feeling, he decided that his only honorable path was to end his life.
    Did Master Takeda make any final statements to you before his death?
    • He said goodbye to me and spoke of my long time desire to return to Korea. He bid me to do so. He was concerned that because of my position in his household and because of my Korean heritage, that I would be assassinated if I remained in Japan. Had I remained after his death to succeed him, it would have been dangerous.
    When did you return to Korea?
    • I returned, with my household, shortly after Takeda, Sokaku’s death.
    Where in Korea did you settle?
    • We settled in Taegu Kyung Buk Province. Here I established my first Korean dojang, and have made my home here ever since. After returning I changed my name back to Choi, Yong Sul and the name of my art to Hapkido.

      Won Kwang-Wha, was one of the earliest students of Korean hapkido under the founder of the art Choi Yong Sul and Suh Bok Sub. He was a pioneer of the art opening one of the first schools for the art in Seoul, the Moo Sool Kwan.


      Won Kwang-Wha also served as a personal secretary and body guard to Suh Bok-Sub's father, congressman Suh Dong-jin. Having first learned hapkido from Suh he later studied directly from Choi Yong-Sul. In 1962, when Kim Moo Hong opened up his Shin Moo-Hong dojang in Seoul he became one the instructors there. Shortly thereafter Won opened his own school the Moo Sool Kwan.
      Being an older practitioner when he started his training, and having pragmatic reasons for studying the art, Won's Moo Sool Kwon emphasized what he believed constituted practical self defense techniques. Moo Sool Kwan emphasizes powerful and direct techniques and a greater emphasis on strength in responses rather than ki power. There is also a preference towards whole body throws than wrist centered joint locking throws.
      Some of his notable students were Park Lee-Hyun, Kimm He-Young, Won Hyung-Dae
      Won Hyung-Dae, his son, took over the management of the kwan upon his father's passing.

      Great Grandmaster Park was a cerified 9th Dan Black Belt by the World Tae Kwon Do Federation in 1985. He was a certified 9th Dan Black Belt in Hapkido by the Moo Sul Kwan Hapkido Federation and a 5th Dan Black Belt by the Korea Yudo Association. He was one of the two highest ranking Moo Sul Kwan instructors in the world. In 1980, he was recipient of the Outstanding Coach Award at the 5th National Collegiate Tae Kwon Do Championships in St. Louis, Missouri.

      Great Grandmaster Park believed in and taught a traditional approach to the martial arts. Discipline, hard work and dedication brought him to a pinnacle that few others have reached. He dedicated his life to teaching and promoting the martial arts. His spirit is carried on by the Black Belt instructors that survive him and continue the tradition of Moo Sul Kwan.

      Great Grandmaster
      Lee H. Park

      1969 - 1988




      Great Grandmaster Lee H. Park was born in Korea on Dec. 25,1939. In 1969 Great Grandmaster Park moved to the United States and was employed at Southeast Missouri State University. It was at this time that Great Grandmaster Park began Moo Sul Kwan in Cape Girardeau.
      Great Grandmaster Park was founder of the American Martial Arts Sports and Education Association, vice-president of the International Council on Martial Arts Education, and was chairman of the Teacher Certification Committee for the International Council on Martial Arts Education. Great Grandmaster Park had previously served as a Delegate At Large for the National AAU Tae Kwon Do Committee, and was a past president of the American Hapkido Association, past chairman of the Sub-committee Safety and Equipment Development for the National AAU Tae Kwon Do Committee and a past chairman of the Regional Board of Examiners for the American Tae Kwon Do Association.


     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2008
  12. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    Good Post matt m....
     
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  13. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

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    Matt, you are acting like a petulant CHILD. You tried to correct how I spelled Daegu - yet you have never been. I sent you to the city own website, you show me an article written by an American. And for what it might be worth to you, Choi Dojunim was not a literate man, his Korean was not even really understandable, according to those that knew him well, so he certainly did not distinguish between a D or T...

    Get it straight kid, you wanted to try and throw that in my face, I simply demonstrated, with fact, that you might be wrong. Grow up.

    Great, you wrestle and do Judo. Good. I have been involved with Hapkido for close to 30 years, and train under one of the 4 men that received a 9th Dan directly from Choi Dojunim. Now, I HAVE NEVER CALLED either Your Father or his teacher a liar, but YOU post on here like you KNOW the only truth, when historically you are simply not correct. Now, if you want to discuss history fine, but when you are corrected about something that is not correct stop thinking someone is bickering or baiting you - you have written several posts that are simply innaccurate - now, I don't retort FOR YOU - you are going to believe what you want, and I think that is fine, but it is unfair that someone that is being exposed to Hapkido for the first time read some of your material that is simply innacurrate.

    Sorry Matt, but you don't get it both ways - you want to correct me, then be able to accept my response, if it cuts to close to the bone, then maybe you might not be correct in the first place.

    Finally, if your best response to your mistake comes by having to resort to name calling, you have a lot more growing up to do.
     
  14. zDom

    zDom Senior Master

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    An argument about English representation of Korean words?

    Kind of silly, if you ask me (although no one has...)

    There is a thread somewhere, I seem to recall, that discusses how the Korean consenont is actually between D and T (and probably varies in regional dialects)

    in the same way we can't seem to agree on if it is a "J" sound or "Ch" sound

    or

    hard G or K sound.

    I think a more important discussion would be, if my instructor is Yoda, and matt.m is Luke, who do I get to be?

    I'm probably more of a Mace Windu, but I am really, really pale so that won't work out. Maybe Anakin, but, well.. I'm rather hoping I don't end up being a sith in the end, sooooo....

    Definately not an Obi Won. He is too defensive, and I am more of an offensive fighter.

    Maybe Qui-Gon!


    /end defuse-with-humor effort ;)
     
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  15. matt.m

    matt.m Senior Master

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    You calling me a kid is an insult in and of itself, and the last time I checked "The truth is the truth." Period end of story. I never called you a name either, although after being called a "Petulant Child" is an insult I will not subscribe to you. I find it more that "The people who are most wrong want to lash out and prove they are right." I am not doing that. I am merely saying what has been passed from Won-Kwang Wha to Lee, on and on etc. So since the late 70's I have been around and training in hapkido. Had I not gone into the Marine Corps and went to combat on 4 continents and 1 island, receiving wonderful things like horrible knees,, back, neck, shoulder, PTSD and Traumatic Brain Injury then I would easily be a 4th dan looking at 5th in hapkido, instead of being a tested brown looking at red.

    So again, I never called you a name pal. Sorry that didn't happen, but I do ask that you pay a bit better attention to what I say. I am a bit tired of this boring back and forth with you. However, Never ever call a Former Marine Corps Sgt. who has been in Combat and has a competition record like I do a child. Just Don't, I find it funny that you tell me that I need to grow up. Yet you did all the name calling, ya know ya did. In my area of the country that is called being a back tracking weasel. Sorry if the truth hurts, but I can guarantee I have done more in 5 yrs. than you have accomplished in you life. So let it go, just let it go. But I am no child and I don't need to grow up. I am doing just fine. It seems you are the one with the complex issue.

    The Star Wars refrences were to show not levels of profeciency, but rather mind sets of the people. I know everything there is to know about being a world champion. However anyone can teach, I like to equate that to sperm donor. But only a select few deserve the title "Instructor, I like to equate that to a father or respected leader."
     
  16. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

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    Come again?

    Matt, I responded to you in kind. And yes, sorry, your attitude is unfortunately, childlike. You wanted to correct me on an issue that you were wrong about, and instead of admitting you MIGHT be wrong, you go off on this tangent...so, I'm am very humbled that you served in the Marines, I am sorry you were injured - it has clearly hampered your training. And maybe you have accomplished more in 5 years than I have in my whole life - I leave that to you to believe, since you don't know me at all. But what you don't know about the history and genealogy of Hapkido seems to me to be very overwhelming.

    I understand that you have a set of beliefs passed on from your instructors. Maybe this knowledge needs to be supplemented. As I said, I am not interesting in baiting you at all, but I don't see the need to not fill in details you seem to be unaware of.

    I am sorry you seem to be upset by the child reference, I will not use it again. However, please accept that the knowledge you have about Hapkido may not be the know all and end all, again, I am not calling anyone a liar - and you will be hard pressed to find a post here where I ever said that - but having traveled to the birthplace of Hapkido and trained with men that predate even your fathers teacher, perhaps you might want to accept that there is a larger knowledge base than that you post with.

    Again, don't want to insult you, but I will continue to point out when you are wrong - it will be up to you to decide how you react to that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2008
  17. Traditionalist

    Traditionalist Orange Belt

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  18. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

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  19. iron_ox

    iron_ox Black Belt

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    Duplicate post, sorry.
     
  20. Traditionalist

    Traditionalist Orange Belt

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