What has the Kukkiwon done for you?

[troubleenuf]

Was just thinking this morning..... OK dangerouse I know. What has the kukkiwon done for me? As with any organization that expects you to pay money to them this should be a question that is asked, and answered in a positive way. But in my experiance the only thing the Kukkiwon has done for me is send me an expensive piece of paper. Other than that?!!! So maybe I am missing something. Just thought I would throw it out and see if someone else sees a benifit that I am missing. And lets keep in mind that if you join or belong to any other organization its not what they have done in the past thats important to you, its what they are doing NOW or in the future that has meaning.

 

[terryl965]

I'm confused by your question they provide you with certification that is recognized all over the world.

Also you said spend alot of money but the actual cost for a first Dan is $90.00 US dollars, where does it cost so much, except your instructor is charging you an arm and a leg, then I would understand.

 

[IcemanSK]

I'm with Terry in confusion. Unless you not a school owner & charged a much larger fee from your instructor for your test: then I get it. If you're a student, you are charged a fee that is higher than what the KKW charges your instructor in order to keep the lights on & make a profit.

Are you talking about $90 1st Dan fee, or a higher fee from your instructor?

 

[Brad Dunne]

I understand where your coming from, but you actually answered your own question: "All you get is an expensive piece of paper"..............

Just what would you want or expect from an organization may be a better question to put forth.

 

[Miles]

I am a total Kukkiwon supporter.

I enjoyed meeting and training folks from all over the world at the Kukkiwon. I look forward to my visit.

I learned the standardized techniques, poomsae and terminology at the Kukkiwon.

The Kukkiwon is the "mecca" of the majority of folks in Taekwondo (no disrespect intended to my ITF brethern). As was mentioned previously, the Kukkiwon certifies black belts. These black belts certificates are internationally recognized. If your certificate is simply just a piece of paper to you and not a confirmation of the struggle and years of training, then perhaps you should change your perspective. My 5th dan Kukkiwon certificate took much longer time and was frankly harder to achieve than my admission to the State Bar.

Another of the responsibilities of the Kukkiwon is to certify instructors to ensure not only quality and standardization of technique but of curriculum. That is a huge task given the millions of practitioners in hundreds of countries. To this end, the Kukkiwon has created textbooks, videos, and a website to help aid in the proliferation of information.

Miles

 

[terryl965]

Miles you are right about evrything in your post.

 

[WMKS Shogun]

First off, let me start this off by stating I am not in any way affiliated with KKW. That said, it seems to me that the KKW offers a degree of standardization, instructor certification, teaching, advancement of the art through research, and a world wide unifying body. What you get out of it is also dependant on what you put into it.

 

[Brad Dunne]

I enjoyed meeting and training folks from all over the world at the Kukkiwon. I look forward to my visit.

That's all well and good, but there are far more TKD Kukkiwon practicioners and instructors who don't have the funding to visit the "Mecca".

I learned the standardized techniques, poomsae and terminology at the Kukkiwon.

I'm sorry to sound offensive here, but one should have been learning those attributes from day one of their training. If they reached BB level, then I'm sure they were partcipating in some degree, in teaching at their school. They should have had a firm grasp of those abilities, long before going overseas.

To this end, the Kukkiwon has created textbooks, videos, and a website to help aid in the proliferation of information.

Again, this is good, but that knowledge offered is at the minimum requirements. It's been discussed here at MT, that the majority of instructors/schools all go beyond these standards offered. The majority of information offered deals directly with the sport mindset and olympic hopefulls.

 

[IcemanSK]

I am a total Kukkiwon supporter.

I enjoyed meeting and training folks from all over the world at the Kukkiwon. I look forward to my visit.

I learned the standardized techniques, poomsae and terminology at the Kukkiwon.

The Kukkiwon is the "mecca" of the majority of folks in Taekwondo (no disrespect intended to my ITF brethern). As was mentioned previously, the Kukkiwon certifies black belts. These black belts certificates are internationally recognized. If your certificate is simply just a piece of paper to you and not a confirmation of the struggle and years of training, then perhaps you should change your perspective. My 5th dan Kukkiwon certificate took much longer time and was frankly harder to achieve than my admission to the State Bar.

Another of the responsibilities of the Kukkiwon is to certify instructors to ensure not only quality and standardization of technique but of curriculum. That is a huge task given the millions of practitioners in hundreds of countries. To this end, the Kukkiwon has created textbooks, videos, and a website to help aid in the proliferation of information.

Miles

I'm also with you on this, Miles. I would add that while there is a standardization that they are trying to acheive, it's not Olympic-style fighting that the Kukkiwon is standardizing. Poomsae & SD are huge parts of the curiculum as well.

 

[troubleenuf]

The Kukkiwon is the "mecca" of the majority of folks in Taekwondo (no disrespect intended to my ITF brethern). As was mentioned previously, the Kukkiwon certifies black belts. These black belts certificates are internationally recognized. If your certificate is simply just a piece of paper to you and not a confirmation of the struggle and years of training, then perhaps you should change your perspective. My 5th dan Kukkiwon certificate took much longer time and was frankly harder to achieve than my admission to the State Bar.

Another of the responsibilities of the Kukkiwon is to certify instructors to ensure not only quality and standardization of technique but of curriculum. That is a huge task given the millions of practitioners in hundreds of countries. To this end, the Kukkiwon has created textbooks, videos, and a website to help aid in the proliferation of information.

Miles[/quote]

Have some time this afternoon and thought I would answer this....
You state that the certification from the Kukkiown is confirmation of you training and hard work. And that I should perhaps change my perspective. However I give you this. Why do you need a piece of paper from a country far away to confirm your hard work? Perhaps it is you who needs to change your perspective?
I too have trained at the Kukkiwon on several occastions. However, the last time I was there was with the Pan-Am team for the World Championships (no wasnt a participant, just along for the ride). Anyway, the "Master" who was in charge of the training spent more time belitteling the participants (many who were world class athletes) than he did in actual training. Granted, while this was not my experiance on prior visits it did still leave a "bad taste in the mouth" so to speak. I have also found that you will get different theory on technique depending upon who is doing the training and/or who is in "power" at the time. Same goes for the books, and videos that are put out that are aproved by the Kukkiwon as officail sources for information. I have a collection of these books. All have differences in them. The Kukkiwon seems to give their aproval based upon politics rather than what material is in the book.
Finnally, I would bet that the amount of money sent from the US to Korea is in the millions of dollars every year. If that is the case WHY do we have to go to Korea to recieve any training. Why dont they come here to give seminars and training on a regular basis to those who are supporting their programs? Personally I have sent over $50,000 to them for certification. I get a newsletter on occastion and a Christmas card. The point I am trying to make is this: If you belong to any organization and support it to that extent would you continue to support it without a viable payback?

 

[IcemanSK]

The Kukkiwon is the "mecca" of the majority of folks in Taekwondo (no disrespect intended to my ITF brethern). As was mentioned previously, the Kukkiwon certifies black belts. These black belts certificates are internationally recognized. If your certificate is simply just a piece of paper to you and not a confirmation of the struggle and years of training, then perhaps you should change your perspective. My 5th dan Kukkiwon certificate took much longer time and was frankly harder to achieve than my admission to the State Bar.

Another of the responsibilities of the Kukkiwon is to certify instructors to ensure not only quality and standardization of technique but of curriculum. That is a huge task given the millions of practitioners in hundreds of countries. To this end, the Kukkiwon has created textbooks, videos, and a website to help aid in the proliferation of information.

Miles

Have some time this afternoon and thought I would answer this....
You state that the certification from the Kukkiown is confirmation of you training and hard work. And that I should perhaps change my perspective. However I give you this. Why do you need a piece of paper from a country far away to confirm your hard work? Perhaps it is you who needs to change your perspective?
I too have trained at the Kukkiwon on several occastions. However, the last time I was there was with the Pan-Am team for the World Championships (no wasnt a participant, just along for the ride). Anyway, the "Master" who was in charge of the training spent more time belitteling the participants (many who were world class athletes) than he did in actual training. Granted, while this was not my experiance on prior visits it did still leave a "bad taste in the mouth" so to speak. I have also found that you will get different theory on technique depending upon who is doing the training and/or who is in "power" at the time. Same goes for the books, and videos that are put out that are aproved by the Kukkiwon as officail sources for information. I have a collection of these books. All have differences in them. The Kukkiwon seems to give their aproval based upon politics rather than what material is in the book.
Finnally, I would bet that the amount of money sent from the US to Korea is in the millions of dollars every year. If that is the case WHY do we have to go to Korea to recieve any training. Why dont they come here to give seminars and training on a regular basis to those who are supporting their programs? Personally I have sent over $50,000 to them for certification. I get a newsletter on occastion and a Christmas card. The point I am trying to make is this: If you belong to any organization and support it to that extent would you continue to support it without a viable payback?[/quote]

You ask others about their perspectives of the Kukkiwon based on their experiences & then question Miles because his experience was positive & not negative like yours.

You seem to have a reasoned arguement for your negative experience. You've obviously thought about it quite a bit. It's left a negative impression on you. Your question about "a piece of paper from a country far away" has already got it's answer from your negative experience. The answer for you is "no, it's not worth it." Your perspective is negative already, so naturally, you will have a negative outlook on it.

My question to you is, "what are you going to with your 'piece of paper from a country far away' that you have such bad feelings about?

 

[troubleenuf]

You ask others about their perspectives of the Kukkiwon based on their experiences & then question Miles because his experience was positive & not negative like yours.

Actually I question Miles because he question me? Kind of have the right to do dont you think? Whats got your feathers in a tuff. I am just trying to raise a ligitimate question on why we send all that money to Korea.

 

[IcemanSK]

You ask others about their perspectives of the Kukkiwon based on their experiences & then question Miles because his experience was positive & not negative like yours.

Actually I question Miles because he question me? Kind of have the right to do dont you think? Whats got your feathers in a tuff. I am just trying to raise a ligitimate question on why we send all that money to Korea.

I understand that you're trying to raise a legitmate question. I agree, BTW, that it is an important question to ask. I just think it's funny that you ask a question on a forum to which you already have your personal answer & you get bent that others disagree. In case you missed it, I have no problem with what the Kukkiwon has done for me. If I had the issues that you've come across, I'd consider leaving. What are you going to do with the piece of paper from a country far away that you have bad feeling about?

 

[exile]

I'd like to interpose a question here and maybe help keep the temperature of the discussion on the cooler side.

My question is this: the major argument that I've seen on behalf of the KKW is in this and other threads, the one that embraces the majority of TKD people (who can't afford to go to Korea to train) is that the KKW acts as an oversight body and ensures both standardization and the 'portability' of rank across large chunks of space and time. I'm skeptical about how much actual oversight is involved, for the reasons I've given, but like currency, it works if you believe it, so I'm fine with that general answer. But why is it that we TKDists need this kind of portability? What is there about the structure of the TKD training system which makes this necessary or desirable? Does it work that way with Goju-ryu, say? If you have a BB from a Gojo-ryu school, does the credibility of your belt depend on certification and validation by a world center of Gojo-ryu oversight? I have the very strong impression that the answer is no, and that it's not that way for any of the O/J karate or the CMAs that have gradations of rank. (If that's a misimpression, I'd be glad to be corrected, and I'm dead serious about that.) In these other systems, the legitimacy of the school lineage seems to be the crucial factor. In contrast, it looks to me as if KKW ranking trumps school ranking, no matter how illustrious the teaching lineage, so far as legitimacy goes. If so, why would that be?

 

[Kacey]

The Kukkiwon is the "mecca" of the majority of folks in Taekwondo (no disrespect intended to my ITF brethern). As was mentioned previously, the Kukkiwon certifies black belts. These black belts certificates are internationally recognized. If your certificate is simply just a piece of paper to you and not a confirmation of the struggle and years of training, then perhaps you should change your perspective.

Um... as an ITF-style practitioner, I fail to see how your interpretation of the WTF varies from my interpretation of the ITF - except that, being Jewish, I'm not overly interested in going to Mecca; Jerusalem, perhaps.

My point, however, is that the ITF certifies black belts. These black belt certificates are internationally recognized, and, if I understand correctly, require the same level of information as the WTF - the testing instructor fills out the requisite paperwork, indicating that the student has met the instructor's requirements, and sends said paperwork in with the requisite fee; some time later, a certificate arrives.

If your certificate is simply just a piece of paper to you and not a confirmation of the struggle and years of training, then perhaps you should change your perspective.

I have several ITF BB certificates, and that they came from the ITF means very little to me - no one at the ITF headquarters to which they were sent knows me as a person (although GM Choi - not Gen. Choi, but his son - was on the testing board for my III Dan, which makes that particular ITF certificate worth more than others, where no one from outside the US was present). What is important to me is that my sahbum signed them, that he certified that I had, indeed, demonstrated that I had reached a certain level of ability. That confirmation is, indeed, priceless to me - but the piece of paper means little, beyond being a physical representation of that confirmation.

As far as what the Kukkiwon has done for me... well, for obvious reasons, I feel it's done nothing, as while I have had contact with various people who are certified by the Kukkiwon, I have had no direct contact with the Kukkiwon myself.

 

[IcemanSK]

I'd like to interpose a question here and maybe help keep the temperature of the discussion on the cooler side.

My question is this: the major argument that I've seen on behalf of the KKW is in this and other threads, the one that embraces the majority of TKD people (who can't afford to go to Korea to train) is that the KKW acts as an oversight body and ensures both standardization and the 'portability' of rank across large chunks of space and time. I'm skeptical about how much actual oversight is involved, for the reasons I've given, but like currency, it works if you believe it, so I'm fine with that general answer. But why is it that we TKDists need this kind of portability? What is there about the structure of the TKD training system which makes this necessary or desirable? Does it work that way with Goju-ryu, say? If you have a BB from a Gojo-ryu school, does the credibility of your belt depend on certification and validation by a world center of Gojo-ryu oversight? I have the very strong impression that the answer is no, and that it's not that way for any of the O/J karate or the CMAs that have gradations of rank. (If that's a misimpression, I'd be glad to be corrected, and I'm dead serious about that.) In these other systems, the legitimacy of the school lineage seems to be the crucial factor. In contrast, it looks to me as if KKW ranking trumps school ranking, no matter how illustrious the teaching lineage, so far as legitimacy goes. If so, why would that be?

You have a good point here, exile. Perhaps it's not an issue for a Goju-Ryu or other Ma-stylists. But you brought up the issue of lineage. With the intentional blending of the Kwans into Kukki TKD, most folks in TKD (at least many WTF/KKW ranked schools) don't know their lineage &/or Kwan background. So, they have to rely on their KKW cert. as the closest thing to a lineage. Since Kukki-TKD is so big now, the question of "who is your instructor" means little, anymore. You & I are in a unique position to know the history & lineage of our training. Most are not.

After I received my 1st Dan KKW, my instructor moved away. Although my instructor was respected in the area, I would have not been accepted as a 1st Dan in another school in the area had he not given me a KKW cert. I'm happy to have my 3rd Dan from my instructor's organization. It too, is signed by GM Uhm (like a KKW cert.) My instructor has a good enough reputation. But world recognition has greater still. I'd honestly feel that way if I trained in the ITF from the begining, too.

 

[exile]

Perhaps it's not an issue for a Goju-Ryu or other Ma-stylists. But you brought up the issue of lineage. With the intentional blending of the Kwans into Kukki TKD, most folks in TKD (at least many WTF/KKW ranked schools) don't know their lineage &/or Kwan background. So, they have to rely on their KKW cert. as the closest thing to a lineage. Since Kukki-TKD is so big now, the question of "who is your instructor" means little, anymore. You & I are in a unique position to know the history & lineage of our training. Most are not.

Mmmm. Good observation. The 'demographic explosion' that TKD has undergone in the past several decades does tend to overwhelm individual practitioners in the mass.

After I received my 1st Dan KKW, my instructor moved away. Although my instructor was respected in the area, I would have not been accepted as a 1st Dan in another school in the area had he not given me a KKW cert. I'm happy to have my 3rd Dan from my instructor's organization. It too, is signed by GM Uhm (like a KKW cert.) My instructor has a good enough reputation. But world recognition has greater still. I'd honestly feel that way if I trained in the ITF from the begining, too.

So this is an issue of scale, in effect. The sheer volume of TKD participation and the enormous number of people not only doing, but teaching TKD, leads to a kind of anonymity of all but the very highest ranking individual instructors... yes, I think that's a very big part of the story.

 

[dancingalone]

But why is it that we TKDists need this kind of portability? What is there about the structure of the TKD training system which makes this necessary or desirable?

That is an interesting point. Certainly there's a human desire to feel connected to something bigger. It's the reason why we root for sports teams or why patriotism or nationalism is still a powerful force today. Perhaps TKD people have been sold on the idea of belonging...since the kwan system is largely dead, you'd really don't have the same identity provided by the ryu-ha system in karate.

Does it work that way with Goju-ryu, say? If you have a BB from a Gojo-ryu school, does the credibility of your belt depend on certification and validation by a world center of Gojo-ryu oversight? I have the very strong impression that the answer is no, and that it's not that way for any of the O/J karate or the CMAs that have gradations of rank. (If that's a misimpression, I'd be glad to be corrected, and I'm dead serious about that.) In these other systems, the legitimacy of the school lineage seems to be the crucial factor. In contrast, it looks to me as if KKW ranking trumps school ranking, no matter how illustrious the teaching lineage, so far as legitimacy goes. If so, why would that be?

You are absolutely correct, Exile, at least when talking about the Okinawan lines of Goju. There are numerous Goju-ryu organizations through out the world, some more prestigious than others (in my eye) because they are headed by an illustrious sensei (like Morio Higaonna's IOGKF) or because they are connected to one of Chojun Miyagi's top students either through blood or through student succession (Shoreikan, Meibuken or Jundokan). All of these Goju groups have somewhat different syllabi, but the relationships especially between the three latter groups I mention are generally good if largely isolated. While there is pride and prestige in belonging to say the Jundokan, you certainly don't have the any rivalry like the ITF/WTF feud going on!

Bragging rights in Okinawan Goju are largely by how direct a connection you can trace back to Miyagi Sensei. There's really no concept of a large umbrella organization equivalent to the Kukkiwon/WTF.

 

[dancingalone]

Since Kukki-TKD is so big now, the question of "who is your instructor" means little, anymore. You & I are in a unique position to know the history & lineage of our training. Most are not.

This is also partially due to the standardization of TKD curriculums. The various Goju ryu-ha do have slight kata variances and even additional different kata. Shoreikan and Meibuken for example have extra kata that their founders created, and there are specific signature movements that will discern to an experienced eye which branch of Goju a student came from even when he is performing a kata that is used by all the branches.

With standardization comes the price of losing your unique identity.

 

[exile]

That is an interesting point. Certainly there's a human desire to feel connected to something bigger. It's the reason why we root for sports teams or why patriotism or nationalism is still a powerful force today. Perhaps TKD people have been sold on the idea of belonging...since the kwan system is largely dead, you'd really don't have the same identity provided by the ryu-ha system in karate.

Yes. This dovetails nicely with what Iceman was pointing out about the loss of lineage connectedness in most TKD practitioners. Those of us lucky enough to be part of small, tradition-minded schools with strong senses of our own lineage connections to the pioneering Kwans are probably a very, very tiny minority of TKD practitioners...

There are numerous Goju-ryu organizations through out the world, some more prestigious than others (in my eye) because they are headed by an illustrious sensei (like Morio Higaonna's IOGKF) or because they are connected to one of Chojun Miyagi's top students either through blood or through student succession (Shoreikan, Meibukan or Jundokan). All of these Goju groups have somewhat different syllabi, but the relationships especially between the three latter groups I mention are generally good if largely isolated. While there is pride and prestige in belonging to say the Jundokan, you certainly don't have the any rivalry like the ITF/WTF feud going on!

This is the sense I've had about Gojo-ryu for a long time. It seems to belong to a totally different belief system about the relationship between the school and the student than you find in TKD, in that in Gojo-ryu, and certain other karate styles, the school and its ancestral connections are paramount, whereas in TKD, the school is frequently just an 'intercessor' between the student and the mega-org.

Bragging rights in Okinawan Goju are largely by how direct a connection you can trace back to Miyagi Sensei. There's really no concept of a large umbrella organization equivalent to the Kukkiwon/WTF.

Again, that's been my sense for a long time, and I think a lot of other karate (and non-karate) styles share that overall view of legitimacy.