What has the Kukkiwon done for you?

[exile]

I have friends from Black Belt factories here in St. Louis that are red and black belts, within a year and a half, that make more mistakes in poomsea than I do. And not to be demeaning but I am only a blue belt in TKD, which I was awarded in Dec. of 06. So that means I have Purple, Brown, Red, then Dan to go, I am a firm believer that slow and steady wins the race, I guess I am either a tortoise or retarded when it comes to getting rank. However, being an instructor I expect more out of myself just on principle. Not to mention that I wear two titanium custom fit leg braces that is part of the reason I was discharged from the USMC.

Yep you heard it straight from the horse's mouth......10 friends from 4 different black belt factories.:erg:

I've heard far too many stories like this to believe that it can be just accident, or coincidence, or the odd exception. And I've heard the rationales and justifications, too. So take the WTF: yes, it's a huge organization, no one's quality control is perfect... you know how the line goes. And they have a point, though not the one they think they're making. The real moral of the story is that there isn't a spoon long enough to keep you safe when you're supping with the particular devil that is the International Olympic Committee and its statellites and subsatellites. The IOC is way more huge as an organization than the WTF, and as far as I can tell is shot through with the same putrid corruption but on a still vaster scale. Remember that nasty buisness with the Canadian figure skaters who were downgraded because the unspeakable French judge had a deal with the equally unspeakable Russian org about vote-trading? Well, the villains got nailed there, but plenty of people who would know, many athletes among them, told us that that was just the tip of the iceberg. The Olympic world is filled with corruption and cynicism, and achieving Olympic status is maybe the worst thing that can happen to a MA—it guarantees that you are going to start hanging out, and horse-trading, with the master politicians of the sport world, and eventually will become just like them. Yum, yum.

And it's inevitable, given the fact that the WTF and the KKW are the twin MA instrumentalities of the Korean government, that the two are going to be basically reinforcing each other's game. Buyer, beware.

 

[newGuy12]

I say that if a school is a black belt factory, then the main fault lies with the Master Instructor, regardless of any affiliation. After all, He or She must sign off on any promotion!

EDIT -- The student has to exercise some kind of forethought when they join a School, but how can they know for sure? They ultimately must trust their Teacher not to promote them too soon. Any kind of headquarters, after all, is just some entity far away. I have never been to KKW, I will never visit. To me, they are really some people in a far away land, making rules and so forth. I have high regard for them, but they are so far removed. It comes down to the Master Instructor, the Sabum-Neem to make sure that everything is in order. It is on thier head, they carry that weight -- that is the burden. They know it (or should know it) going into this, with their eyes open.

And any student who will be "tracked" to be a future teacher has to be "heads up" and "clicked on". What if they end up running a school? You don't want it to look like a car wreck! That is also the burden of the Master Instructor!

 

[YoungMan]

The problem with this, though, is that the Kukkiwon does not really require much besides age, length of time, and cerification of the instructor requirements. As long as you have attained the proper length of time at your current Dan level, are of the requisite age, and your instructor is certified KKW, you can receive a Dan certificate.
As stated beforem the Kukkiwon issues certificates based on the instructor's recommendation. Trust me, there are a LOT of people out there with KKW certificates who probably never should have gotten them-a by product of the KKW desire to become powerful and influential by way of numbers.
But realize, it most likely never could have happened any other way. First, the Korean gov't was trying to establish TKD worldwide having received independence one generation before. Second, it was consciously trying to compete with Choi and his ITF.
The powers that be in Korea made two serious errors: putting a non-TKD man in charge of the Kukkiwon, and making him the head of several organizations at once. This is an invitation to corruption.
Unfortunately, by the time Mr. Uhm (a true TKD Grandmaster if there ever was one) ascended to the top spot, he was in the twilight of his career.

 

[terryl965]

The problem with this, though, is that the Kukkiwon does not really require much besides age, length of time, and cerification of the instructor requirements. As long as you have attained the proper length of time at your current Dan level, are of the requisite age, and your instructor is certified KKW, you can receive a Dan certificate.
As stated beforem the Kukkiwon issues certificates based on the instructor's recommendation. Trust me, there are a LOT of people out there with KKW certificates who probably never should have gotten them-a by product of the KKW desire to become powerful and influential by way of numbers.
But realize, it most likely never could have happened any other way. First, the Korean gov't was trying to establish TKD worldwide having received independence one generation before. Second, it was consciously trying to compete with Choi and his ITF.
The powers that be in Korea made two serious errors: putting a non-TKD man in charge of the Kukkiwon, and making him the head of several organizations at once. This is an invitation to corruption.
Unfortunately, by the time Mr. Uhm (a true TKD Grandmaster if there ever was one) ascended to the top spot, he was in the twilight of his career.

This is so true but if GM Uhm wanted to he could have put steps on to make sure of the quality of the Art. He choose not to. We as in the TKD'ist of today need a new relm so we can build what others have forgotten about. We just need that influencial person to carry us on there shoulders.

 

[exile]

This is so true but if GM Uhm wanted to he could have put steps on to make sure of the quality of the Art. He choose not to. We as in the TKD'ist of today need a new relm so we can build what others have forgotten about. We just need that influencial person to carry us on there shoulders.

And what we need most of all, Terry, is that new org, oriented to the Kwan-era rough-and-tumble concept of TKD as a fighting art (however updated and technically modified—I'm talking attitude and viewpoint, not technical content necessarily) that has come up in previous discussions. Not a big, top-down federation, but functioning as a kind of looser organizing framework for dojangs, individual schools which are, and will always be (in fact, if not in name) the place where the quality of the art is maintained (or diluted). Something that works not top-down, or even totally bottom-up, but more back-and-forth.


I'm hoping that it'll happen in my lifetime... :uhohh:

 

[IcemanSK]

And what we need most of all, Terry, is that new org, oriented to the Kwan-era rough-and-tumble concept of TKD as a fighting art (however updated and technically modified—I'm talking attitude and viewpoint, not technical content necessarily) that has come up in previous discussions. Not a big, top-down federation, but functioning as a kind of looser organizing framework for dojangs, individual schools which are, and will always be (in fact, if not in name) the place where the quality of the art is maintained (or diluted). Something that works not top-down, or even totally bottom-up, but more back-and-forth.


I'm hoping that it'll happen in my lifetime... :uhohh:

I like the idea, exile. I just don't see a group like that having a large impact on TKD. A small impact in a region, perhaps. But, I do like the idea.

 

[Laurentkd]

I am sorry to say, even though I do like both sets and do them daily and different tensions and tempos, (Muscle toning and Physical Therapy). I am here to tell you that beyond a shadow of a doubt that the I.T.F. Hyungs are much more powerful and intrecant during transitions.

Just to prove a point in class a few weeks ago I was doing Do-San. With my left forearm I broke through 2, inch and a quarter pine. With the reverse punch I went through 3. That is just the first movement in the hyung.

So it would compare like so
Il Jang Chong Ji
Ee Jang Dan-Gun
Sam Jang Do-San

This is a little off topic but, why would you not be able to do the same thing with Tae Guek Il Jang?

 

[exile]

I like the idea, exile. I just don't see a group like that having a large impact on TKD. A small impact in a region, perhaps. But, I do like the idea.

I agree, Tom, it won't have a big impact... at first at least. I think of it sort of the way microbreweries relate to big outfits such as Budweiser and Coors. When Sierra Nevada and Anchor started pioneering high-quality English bitter ale styles, the major breweries thought it was a big joke; but these days, they're not laughing. Took a while, but apparently there is a huge market for craft beers, and companies like Rogue, Stone and other very good producers faithful to the style are cleaning up on that market. Corporate types tend to talk to each other, mostly, and reinforce each other's preconceptions about what people really want; every so often, though, a little bit of competition makes it clear how much a lot people want something quite different...

I guess what I'm thinking of is that there are a lot of people—maybe not vast compared to the ranks of average practitioners who are happy with whatever arrangement and curriculum they're given, but not negligible either—who want something a bit 'grittier' in their training, and a bit more combat-based, more functional—and much less driven by agendas, formulated thousands of miles away, based on nation-state realpolitik.

Take a look at Brian van Cise's IRT website (the link's in his sig line) for a kind of prototype of a very different way of linking MA practitioners together...

 

[terryl965]

And what we need most of all, Terry, is that new org, oriented to the Kwan-era rough-and-tumble concept of TKD as a fighting art (however updated and technically modified—I'm talking attitude and viewpoint, not technical content necessarily) that has come up in previous discussions. Not a big, top-down federation, but functioning as a kind of looser organizing framework for dojangs, individual schools which are, and will always be (in fact, if not in name) the place where the quality of the art is maintained (or diluted). Something that works not top-down, or even totally bottom-up, but more back-and-forth.


I'm hoping that it'll happen in my lifetime... :uhohh:

So what is stopping that from happening? I would certainly would be a part of this.

 

[terryl965]

I like the idea, exile. I just don't see a group like that having a large impact on TKD. A small impact in a region, perhaps. But, I do like the idea.

Maybe not in the beginning but over time it would, it has to start somewhere and with someone.

 

[terryl965]

I agree, Tom, it won't have a big impact... at first at least. I think of it sort of the way microbreweries relate to big outfits such as Budweiser and Coors. When Sierra Nevada and Anchor started pioneering high-quality English bitter ale styles, the major breweries thought it was a big joke; but these days, they're not laughing. Took a while, but apparently there is a huge market for craft beers, and companies like Rogue, Stone and other very good producers faithful to the style are cleaning up on that market. Corporate types tend to talk to each other, mostly, and reinforce each other's preconceptions about what people really want; every so often, though, a little bit of competition makes it clear how much a lot people want something quite different...

I guess what I'm thinking of is that there are a lot of people—maybe not vast compared to the ranks of average practitioners who are happy with whatever arrangement and curriculum they're given, but not negligible either—who want something a bit 'grittier' in their training, and a bit more combat-based, more functional—and much less driven by agendas, formulated thousands of miles away, based on nation-state realpolitik.

Take a look at Brian van Cise's IRT website (the link's in his sig line) for a kind of prototype of a very different way of linking MA practitioners together...

Exile we need to talk about this further.

 

[exile]

So what is stopping that from happening? I would certainly would be a part of this.

I think a kind of critical mass point has to be reached, and then it will happen 'spontaneously' (or so it will appear). We're still in what I think of as the early days of what I believe will be a definite movement of disaffection with the Koran TKD leadership and its impact on this country's approach to the KMAs. People such as those on this board who are unhappy with the way things have worked, are still in the great minority, but what's important is that there is a certain momentum building up that will reach a kind of threshold and bang, all of a sudden there will be a noticeable schism that will bring orgs like the one I'm thinking of into existence.

But as you know better than just about any of us, Terry, the business survival of an MA school run with integrity and devotion to principles, rather than on marketing tricks, is dicey at best. It's going to be a big leap for school owners, and they're going to want to see that there's a real market to support them if they go this new way...

Exile we need to talk about this further.

We do, and will!

 

[terryl965]

I think a kind of critical mass point has to be reached, and then it will happen 'spontaneously' (or so it will appear). We're still in what I think of as the early days of what I believe will be a definite movement of disaffection with the Koran TKD leadership and its impact on this country's approach to the KMAs. People such as those on this board who are unhappy with the way things have worked, are still in the great minority, but what's important is that there is a certain momentum building up that will reach a kind of threshold and bang, all of a sudden there will be a noticeable schism that will bring orgs like the one I'm thinking of into existence.

But as you know better than just about any of us, Terry, the business survival of an MA school run with integrity and devotion to principles, rather than on marketing tricks, is dicey at best. It's going to be a big leap for school owners, and they're going to want to see that there's a real market to support them if they go this new way...



We do, and will!

I believe you have hit the nail on the head, Instructor need to make money and would be willing if they could turn a nickel without leaving the intigrity behind.

 

[Kacey]

I would agree that the level of knowledge and proficiency of technique is equal in both organizations.
However,the ITF was essentially a cult of personality, based primarily on what Choi felt should be taught. When he died, the model for learning stopped.
The Kukkiwon was continually evolving, since there was no "Founder" or leader who determined what was taught. Yes, GM Uhm was the President, but his power was not absolute. It was not "his" organization.
Having said that. every organization has its time and era. The ITF and KKW had theirs, as did the ATA. New organizations and ways of thinking will emerge over the next years or decades.

I'm going to backtrack a little, and respond to this post, as I've been really busy and haven't been on for several days.

I agree - the ITF under Gen. Choi was a cult of personality, and the problems that developed because of that are key in the current problems in the various ITF organizations and off-shoots. The current problem is not that the model for learning stopped - there are plenty of GMs out there who were trained in the ITF, with Gen. Choi, who are continuing that model, who maintain and teach high technical standards.

The problem, as I see it, is not the instruction - the problem is that too few of them (most, IMHO) failed to learn from the example set by the ITF - that a single person, no matter how dynamic, cannot lead the way Gen. Choi did, because none of them are him. I know several of the GMs in question, and they lead great organizations - the problems occur when they try to combine their organizations, because they try to remain too much control over how the organization is run, not because of technical issues, but because of administrative issues. Until that changes, the problems will continue, because it's not a good business model.

 

[Ninjamom]

I'm late joining this conversation, and had to catch up on reading 4 pages.....

I see the KKW in much the same role as a college accreditation board. The accreditation certifies some level of proficiency of the teachers/professors/instructors, the curriculum, and the testing process, and gives the degree itself more value because of its recognition in the wider community. In much the same way, my KKW cert. shows that the belt that I have been awarded was earned under at least some standards for curriculum content and proficiency of my instructors/trainers. If I test for 2nd, 3rd, 4th Dan, the requirements for the certification of my Instructors also increase, much as the requirements are greater to have a Masters/Doctorate program accredited.

A certificate from my instructor, like a college diploma, shows some level of proficiency and accomplishment on my part. The fact that the college is accredited, or that my belt is certified through the KKW, both show that my instructors/professors ascribed to some set of minimal standards in teaching and curriculum, and by extension, I can be expected to know certain things. Still, if I am trying to get into law school, most people recognize that a degree from Cornell or Harvard is probably of more value than one from the Community College of Podunk. In the MAs, I think that translates to the fact that those who have 'been around' know which schools adhere to stricter standards.

In the end, like any education, you will get out of it exactly what you have put into it. I am sure we have all met degreed professionals that left us wondering how they made it through whatever school they attended, accredited or not. I suggest that the same problem is bound to happen in Martial Arts, no matter what level, kind, type of certification/accreditation is used.

exile, Terry, others looking for greater oversight and stricter adherence to quality standards, might I suggest that what you are seeking is like starting a professional association, over-and-above the accreditation process? Just like a law degree doesn't guarantee that you pass the state bar exam, or just like graduating with an EE degree doesn't guarantee life-time membership in the IEEE, getting any MA certification doesn't necessarily guarantee someone will meet the kinds of standards you seek and desire. Perhaps one approach would be to start a similar association that has requirements of your choosing/liking, in addition to the KKW process, rather than trying to replace the KKW outright.

 

[matt.m]

In the 80's I used to love the 3 pt. and you're out system. But whatever. I guess my passion is within the "Art", I could care less about the sport. Plus, I know I am worthy of my 2nd dan without the USJA cert. saying I am.

I have 20 students that make it to class every Thursday or call if they aren't going to make it.

 

[matt.m]

This is a little off topic but, why would you not be able to do the same thing with Tae Guek Il Jang?

The higher stances do not allow for the same torso twisting power generation until you really get into Tae Guek 5, which is Sa Jang. Higher stances = higher center of gravity. Therefore you wouldn't be able to generate the same amount of power in a walking stance or back stance and you would in deep front stances.

Very, very good question indeed. However look at the videos on the www.moosulkwan.com website under Tae Kwon Do. It will better explain.

You also have to remember I didn't begin Tae Kwon do until I was 30. I had always AAU, High School, Free Style, and Greco Roman wrestled as well as have some good success in Yudo. My father taught me hapkido, Moo Sul Kwan style which is all about the front stance and horse stance. Only deep/wide for power. Choi, Young Soo taught Hapkido to Won, Kwang Wha who was a congressman's bodyguard. He was the founder of Moo Sool Kwan Hapkido. GGM Park, whom taught my father and GGM Hildebrand, both 6th dans in MSK:HKD have not changed the way that Lee taught them.

GGM Park also started in TKD of in Chung Do Kwan and ended with Chang Do Kwan, as he and Nam Suk Lee were very dear friends.

So I have always believed in the lower center of gravity=more power=more stability.

Curious, The KKW came after Choi developed the I.T.F., if you look at the poomsea and hyungs the poomsea look like an easier or copy cat if you will version of the I.T.F. Hyungs.

Also, my last question to you is this "If the I.T.F. Hyungs haven't changed since their inception then why have the W.T.F. poomsea changed several times? I have heard mention that they are wanting to change them again."

 

[matt.m]

Kacey, could you please answer my question which is post # 27?

Thanks a mint. Also, I see a lot of the same tune in this thread...it all revolves around validity and legitimacy of the school. It isn't the KKW's, USJA's, or whoever's fault if the school is not up to par and to police every dojang is an absurd endeavor.

It really comes down to the integrity of the Org. GM as well as the Black Belt instructors. They are the ones that build black belts and it should always be a 2 way street. Learn from helping your students and do them better service by teaching ethically with integrity.

More times than not though those words are thrown out into the world of conversation and is like "Yelling in a tornado and expecting someone to hear you." In other words, a moot point.

I swear to you guys, I visited a TKD school with a few flyers to a tournament we were hosting. However, there was a night and day difference between what the instructor said and what he actually did.

 

[exile]

exile, Terry, others looking for greater oversight and stricter adherence to quality standards, might I suggest that what you are seeking is like starting a professional association, over-and-above the accreditation process? Just like a law degree doesn't guarantee that you pass the state bar exam, or just like graduating with an EE degree doesn't guarantee life-time membership in the IEEE, getting any MA certification doesn't necessarily guarantee someone will meet the kinds of standards you seek and desire. Perhaps one approach would be to start a similar association that has requirements of your choosing/liking, in addition to the KKW process, rather than trying to replace the KKW outright.

This is gonna sound like a dissent from what you're suggesting, Njm, and it is in a way, but it winds up appealing to the idea I've bolded in your post from another angle, so... bear with me, eh? :wink1:

See, my perspective on the whole organization issue, and the KKW, is a bit different from this: I don't actually want more oversight. When I complain about the KKW's oversight failures, it's not because I'm disappointed with their fulfilling their oversight mandate, but rather as evidence that they aren't nearly as important as they (and a lot of people in North America) seem to believe they are, based on their claims to oversight accountability. They take that tack to gain legitimacy, and I don't want them to be able to claim that legitimacy, because of my real objection to the KKW: I think they have played a major role in driving TKD in the direction that it's followed—a path which Terry, I and various others feel is detrimental to the maintenance of the practical martial applicability of TKD in self-defense situations. I don't want a (North)American interpretation of TKD to have to be driven by Korea's realpolik, I don't want cherished hyungs to be ditched because of nasty personal rivalries within the Byzantine world of Korean martial sport politics, I don't want the Olympic tournament ideal to be what drives the vision of TKD over the whole bloomin' world. In Korea, for the Koreans... fine, if that's the take they want (and there are plenty of dissenters among Koreans). But I don't want the heavy hand and long shadow of the KKW to fall on dojang curricula as the default.

I want the individual dojang, the stand-alone school, to be the instructional and technical center of TKD, in this neck of the woods, anyway.

And that's where I think your idea of a professional org has a very natural place. In fact, this is something I brought up long ago here, from my own experience: the PSIA in the US, the CSIA in Canada—the professional association of downhill ski instructors, and how they organized to distill the most efficient, effective racing techniques into the normal curriculum (where racing corresponds to maximum efficient use of the ski under all normal conditions, kind of like street SD uses of MA). I would really, really like to see this model replace the current one. The crucial point, though: the PSIA certifies instructors technically—boy, do they ever!—but the individual school organizes its own syllabus and progression, and specializations. You get technically outstanding instructors from this system, but you get some schools heavy on racing, others on powder, others on bump skiing... the great hills have ski schools that can do it all, but with certain obvious leanings based partly on terrain, partly on owner/Director of Skiing preferences. In a way, it is like electrical engineering...

... but for me the issue isn't oversight, so much as removing the martial sport take on TKD that I believe gets incorporated into the KKW's technical brief.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Curious, The KKW came after Choi developed the I.T.F., if you look at the poomsea and hyungs the poomsea look like an easier or copy cat if you will version of the I.T.F. Hyungs.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think the emphasis is very different.

Also, my last question to you is this "If the I.T.F. Hyungs haven't changed since their inception then why have the W.T.F. poomsea changed several times? I have heard mention that they are wanting to change them again."

This is interesting. The ITF Hyung have been tampered with slightly. Apart from the elimination from the ITF of the Shotokan kata Choi included in his earlier publication, Juche has also replaced Kodang. Recently sine wave has been emphasised

I take your point regarding Taeguk Poomsae, I believe they should have left them be. This causes great problems IMHO. I think the changes are again more a change of emphasis towards sport.