What has the Kukkiwon done for you?

[Laurentkd]

You have a good point here, exile. Perhaps it's not an issue for a Goju-Ryu or other Ma-stylists. But you brought up the issue of lineage. With the intentional blending of the Kwans into Kukki TKD, most folks in TKD (at least many WTF/KKW ranked schools) don't know their lineage &/or Kwan background. So, they have to rely on their KKW cert. as the closest thing to a lineage. Since Kukki-TKD is so big now, the question of "who is your instructor" means little, anymore. You & I are in a unique position to know the history & lineage of our training. Most are not.

I think you are right on with this point. I honestly don't know what it would be like as a JMA or CMA to walk into to another school and claim a rank. Must they allow you to keep it? Do you have to start over? Is it just up to the instructor? I don't know. But at least with a KKW certificate you have something that is recognized (and I mean actually eye-sight recognized) the world over so that you at least have some ties to something bigger. I really can't add more to what Iceman said, I think he hit it exactly.

In these other systems, the legitimacy of the school lineage seems to be the crucial factor. In contrast, it looks to me as if KKW ranking trumps school ranking, no matter how illustrious the teaching lineage, so far as legitimacy goes. If so, why would that be?

This is a funny thing as well. I am glad I have KKW certification and I wouldn't want to give it up. But I know others who have KKW certificates who would never have earned the privilege to test for them at my dojang. We even tell students that the KKW certificate is a good thing to have, but you have to train must harder and learn much more to earn our school certificate than you do a KKW. So while the KKW is worth a lot to the greater TKD community, my school certificate is worth more (in my opinion) because of how much higher the standards are to earn it. Kind of a funny dichotomy huh!

 

[Miles]

Why do you need a piece of paper from a country far away to confirm your hard work? Perhaps it is you who needs to change your perspective?

Sorry for my delayed reply.

Do I need my certificate to confirm my hard work, no. My abilities (or lack thereof) speaks of the work I've put into my art. However, I value my certificates-in TKD, law, etc. as tangible acknowledgments of achievement. Perhaps I will change my perspective as I grow older...

I too have trained at the Kukkiwon on several occastions. However, the last time I was there was with the Pan-Am team for the World Championships (no wasnt a participant, just along for the ride). Anyway, the "Master" who was in charge of the training spent more time belitteling the participants (many who were world class athletes) than he did in actual training. Granted, while this was not my experiance on prior visits it did still leave a "bad taste in the mouth" so to speak.

Thank you for your honest opinion and story behind it. I am sorry that your last visit was not as good as your prior visits.

I have also found that you will get different theory on technique depending upon who is doing the training and/or who is in "power" at the time. Same goes for the books, and videos that are put out that are aproved by the Kukkiwon as officail sources for information. I have a collection of these books. All have differences in them. The Kukkiwon seems to give their aproval based upon politics rather than what material is in the book.

I have perhaps the same materials as you. I look at the art as evolving and our knowledge-base expanding. So, as our art evolves, the information about it must keep pace. As ways of promoting our art evolves, like better technology, this too must change. I think it is positive and not just politics. There have only been 2 Presidents of the Kukkiwon in the last 35 years so I think we've been pretty lucky as far as continuity is concerned.

Finnally, I would bet that the amount of money sent from the US to Korea is in the millions of dollars every year. If that is the case WHY do we have to go to Korea to recieve any training. Why dont they come here to give seminars and training on a regular basis to those who are supporting their programs?

Certainly, one does not have to go to Korea to get decent training. That is one of the main goals of the Kukkiwon, to train instructors who can teach in their own countries. However, I think getting immersed in Korean culture is educational as well.

As you may know, the Kukkiwon is sending instructors to California next month to train and certify International Poomsae Referees. The Instructor Training Course has been taught in Egypt I believe.

One of the biggest promoters of Taekwondo has been GM Park, Hae Man. This gentleman travels the globe as an ambassador for the Kukkiwon.

Personally I have sent over $50,000 to them for certification. I get a newsletter on occastion and a Christmas card. The point I am trying to make is this: If you belong to any organization and support it to that extent would you continue to support it without a viable payback?

It sounds like you have been very loyal to the Kukkiwon's mission of certifying black belts. I am not sure what you consider to be a "viable payback?" What would like the Kukkiwon to do for you?

Miles

 

[Miles]

Um... as an ITF-style practitioner, I fail to see how your interpretation of the WTF varies from my interpretation of the ITF - except that, being Jewish, I'm not overly interested in going to Mecca; Jerusalem, perhaps.

My apology was for my statement that the majority of Taekwondoin (with the exception of ITF folks) consider Kukkiwon was the "mecca." I think our interpretations mirror our perspectives, and that is a good thing!

My point, however, is that the ITF certifies black belts. These black belt certificates are internationally recognized, and, if I understand correctly, require the same level of information as the WTF - the testing instructor fills out the requisite paperwork, indicating that the student has met the instructor's requirements, and sends said paperwork in with the requisite fee; some time later, a certificate arrives.

Yes, I think as far as standardization goes, the intent of the ITF and Kukkiwon are similar, as is the goal for internationally recognized certification of black belts.

I have several ITF BB certificates, and that they came from the ITF means very little to me - no one at the ITF headquarters to which they were sent knows me as a person (although GM Choi - not Gen. Choi, but his son - was on the testing board for my III Dan, which makes that particular ITF certificate worth more than others, where no one from outside the US was present). What is important to me is that my sahbum signed them, that he certified that I had, indeed, demonstrated that I had reached a certain level of ability. That confirmation is, indeed, priceless to me - but the piece of paper means little, beyond being a physical representation of that confirmation.

You've brought up an important nuance to the discussion which is that your instructor thought enough of your hard work to risk his reputation by certifying you to an international body. The paper may mean little but what it represents means a lot. (I am thinking of the whole flag-burning issue-the fabric of any flag is not all that costly, but what the flag represents...well, the cost of freedom has always been costly).

As far as what the Kukkiwon has done for me... well, for obvious reasons, I feel it's done nothing, as while I have had contact with various people who are certified by the Kukkiwon, I have had no direct contact with the Kukkiwon myself.

Kacey, we'll convert you sometime...sort of like the Borg!

Miles

 

[Kacey]

My apology was for my statement that the majority of Taekwondoin (with the exception of ITF folks) consider Kukkiwon was the "mecca." I think our interpretations mirror our perspectives, and that is a good thing!

When I was in the ITF, they were quite specific that the WTF/Kukkiwon existed to promote sport TKD (the WTF was frequently compared to the national soccer association, or similar organizations), while the ITF existed to promote technical proficiency. While I have since learned differently, I doubt you will get most members of the ITF to admit to anything other than the interpretation I was taught.

Yes, I think as far as standardization goes, the intent of the ITF and Kukkiwon are similar, as is the goal for internationally recognized certification of black belts.

I agree - although, as I said above, many, if not most, members of the ITF will disagree.

You've brought up an important nuance to the discussion which is that your instructor thought enough of your hard work to risk his reputation by certifying you to an international body. The paper may mean little but what it represents means a lot. (I am thinking of the whole flag-burning issue-the fabric of any flag is not all that costly, but what the flag represents...well, the cost of freedom has always been costly).

True.

Kacey, we'll convert you sometime...sort of like the Borg!

Miles

After 21 years (myself), 28 years (my sahbum), and 41 years (my sahbum's sahbum), I find this rather unlikely!

 

[IcemanSK]

When I was in the ITF, they were quite specific that the WTF/Kukkiwon existed to promote sport TKD (the WTF was frequently compared to the national soccer association, or similar organizations), while the ITF existed to promote technical proficiency. While I have since learned differently, I doubt you will get most members of the ITF to admit to anything other than the interpretation I was taught.



I agree - although, as I said above, many, if not most, members of the ITF will disagree.



True.



After 21 years (myself), 28 years (my sahbum), and 41 years (my sahbum's sahbum), I find this rather unlikely!

Resistance is futile, Kacey. Join us.

Yup, I've been lookin' awhile for that icon

 

[YoungMan]

What the Kukkiwon did over the past 30 years was similar to getting a high school/college diploma: it gave you tangible evidence that you were who you said you were. Because the Kukkiwon is (for now anyway), the premier governing body of Taekwondo worldwide, a certificate issued by it is recognized all over the world.
Now what that means is that you and your organization teach a standard curriculum, rather than making it up as you go along. What it also means is that it shows your students and your colleagues that you have credibility-a TKD body above your class and organization knows and recognizes you.
Think about it. Who would you rather study under: some goofball who claims 7th Dan but is essentially self/magazine taught, or someone who has credentials that are recognized by his colleagues? You can study under a self proclaimed or self taught teacher if you want and take your chances.
Now, having said that, I truly believe the KKW as we know will decline/disappear in 5-10 years as the older generation (spec. GGM Uhm) retires. I doubt anyone could replace him. Nobody has his kind of credibility.
What will happen? The KKW will become irrelevant and the Kwan system will reassert itself. Now, the good thing about this is that with the Kwans, you know who the Instructors are. As my Instructor mentioned, who your instructor is and his recommendation is worth much more than KKW certification. Honestly, under Dr. Kim, KKW certification was given to pretty much anyone in its quest for political superiority.
Problem is, I'm not even sure how Kwans would still be viable, other than Chung Do Kwan, Ji Do Kwan, and maybe some others.
So while KKW certification cerainly offered credibility, there was definitely a dark side to that.

 

[matt.m]

Wow,

Well I hope not to get over looked on this post but I wish you all to consider this. KKW certification is the same thing as U.S.J.A., U.S.J.F., or U.S.J.I. certifications
That is US Judo Association, Federation, and Institute.

For state level and above competition in Judo you have to be a member of one of the following that validates your rank according to if you are a junior or senior. Same philosophy as jr. / sr. in TKD.

However, the major difference is this......for TKD only the 1st Poom or 1st Dan KKW or I.T.F. Cert. are the cert's recognized for higher level competition.

When I began teaching my Yudo class I asked the class "Do you want to become members of the USJA and compete at state level or do you just want our organizational certificate? At Dan you will get the USJA Cert."

They went with the choice B. I find it important that the Head instructors of classes whether it be Yudo or TKD to have KKW or USJA types of certificates. It is a form of validation beyond organizational house belt.

Kacey, I pose this question to you.......considering that there are 3 factions calling themselves the "Real" I.T.F. which one do you find most prevelant. Remember in Moo Sul Kwan I have said a million times that we do both the Tae Guek's and the Hyungs. I personally like the power of the Hyungs better, but I am a Yudo/Hapkido guy on the path to dan in TKD."

However you are right in the assumption that the level of knowledge is equivilant between the I.T.F. and W.T.F.

 

[YoungMan]

I would agree that the level of knowledge and proficiency of technique is equal in both organizations.
However,the ITF was essentially a cult of personality, based primarily on what Choi felt should be taught. When he died, the model for learning stopped.
The Kukkiwon was continually evolving, since there was no "Founder" or leader who determined what was taught. Yes, GM Uhm was the President, but his power was not absolute. It was not "his" organization.
Having said that. every organization has its time and era. The ITF and KKW had theirs, as did the ATA. New organizations and ways of thinking will emerge over the next years or decades.

 

[terryl965]

I would agree that the level of knowledge and proficiency of technique is equal in both organizations.
However,the ITF was essentially a cult of personality, based primarily on what Choi felt should be taught. When he died, the model for learning stopped.
The Kukkiwon was continually evolving, since there was no "Founder" or leader who determined what was taught. Yes, GM Uhm was the President, but his power was not absolute. It was not "his" organization.
Having said that. every organization has its time and era. The ITF and KKW had theirs, as did the ATA. New organizations and ways of thinking will emerge over the next years or decades.

I will agree new orgs. will come and matbe that will what will be bst for all of TKD since to many KKW certs. means absolutely nothing withen my school. I have seen KKW certified people that could not even do a prper roundhouse.

 

[Twin Fist]

I have a deep dislike for large org's

They seem like money pits to me

 

[exile]

I have seen KKW certified people that could not even do a prper roundhouse.

And that, I think, is the central, devastating fact about the KKW: the cases Terry refers to could not exist if the KKW actually delivered the oversight that its certification is widely assumed to vouch for. In fact, as reported by Kwan Jang, Terry, and others in this discussion, it does nothing of the kind. Given that state of affairs, the one claim that that the KKW asserts on our credibility—that it at least offers a kind of portability of credentials—pretty well falls apart, it seems to me.

I agree with Terry also that there will be new organizations, focused much more on the realistic combat aspects of TKD as a fighting art. Who knows? Maybe one day there will an American analogue of the Kukkiwon, focused sincerely on the effective combat resources of TKD, as vs. whatever it is that the KKW currently occupies itself with. Organizations have their own natural life cycles...

I have a deep dislike for large org's

They seem like money pits to me

That makes two of us.

 

[IcemanSK]

Maybe it's the idea of "the devil you know" but, I'm gonna stick with the KKW for now. As wary as I am of large organizations, I'm also wary of the upstart alphabet TKD orgs that pop up in the back of TKDTimes. It's often one guy who has cut all ties with his instructors & org. & started his own thing.

I'd feel more comfortable with a group (or a few folks) who kept their ties with previous instructors, & yet, started their own thing. There certainly are groups like that. I trust them more.

For now, I'll keep my affilliation with the KKW & my Kwan.

 

[terryl965]

Maybe it's the idea of "the devil you know" but, I'm gonna stick with the KKW for now. As wary as I am of large organizations, I'm also wary of the upstart alphabet TKD orgs that pop up in the back of TKDTimes. It's often one guy who has cut all ties with his instructors & org. & started his own thing.

I'd feel more comfortable with a group (or a few folks) who kept their ties with previous instructors, & yet, started their own thing. There certainly are groups like that. I trust them more.

For now, I'll keep my affilliation with the KKW & my Kwan.

Iceman I am not saying cut ties with anybody me I have my KKW sort of and you know the story, so I will leave that alone. But if a few people like you me and some other forge ahead for the betterment of TKD and get it back to the roots that it was before McDojo's. That would be better for the future students of TKD. Please and you know this if you have the money you can get a KKW cert. from quite of few under liners, money talks and ******** walks. In my area there are maybe 12 people in the last year that have recieved KKW and they cannot even throw a roundhouse the right way and now they have saterlite schools for those that got them there KKW cert. and are making them more money. This is killing me and the art I love. Maybe we as a whole need to stand up for what is right and do something about it.

 

[IcemanSK]

Iceman I am not saying cut ties with anybody me I have my KKW sort of and you know the story, so I will leave that alone. But if a few people like you me and some other forge ahead for the betterment of TKD and get it back to the roots that it was before McDojo's. That would be better for the future students of TKD. Please and you know this if you have the money you can get a KKW cert. from quite of few under liners, money talks and ******** walks. In my area there are maybe 12 people in the last year that have recieved KKW and they cannot even throw a roundhouse the right way and now they have saterlite schools for those that got them there KKW cert. and are making them more money. This is killing me and the art I love. Maybe we as a whole need to stand up for what is right and do something about it.

Terry,
I don't disagree with you that a KKW cert. means little in & of itself. I have folks in my town with KKW certs that have never even SEEN a form, let alone been taught one. I'm saying that, for me as one who has one & is working hard to maintain it's meaning, I'm not going to go anywhere, yet.

I'm just less trustful of the singular person, with seemingly no ties to anyone, with their own organization, than I am with someone a KKW cert. I've been around long enough to smell :bs1:{beit from someone who claims (remember THAT is often in dispute, too) to have a KKW cert, or someone with a cert from an organization I've never heard of}. But, if I'm looking at school windows, I'm more likely to go check out a school that claims KKW afilliation, than I am to check out a school from a group I've not heard about. But I'm still gonna ask a lot of questions.:argue:

 

[exile]

There are problems at both levels, the individual shady school and the corrupt superorg. But my feeling, like Terry's, is that the latter is the more damaging and ominous one. The vast amounts of cash that flow through the KKW system make it vulnerable to corruption (and boy, have we seen some high profile examples, eh?) and like an infection, anything that happens in such a top-down outfit is going to poison the whose structure in a systemic way. There's reason to believe, from stories like Terry's, Kwan Jang's and others, that that's already been happening.

 

[terryl965]

Terry,
I don't disagree with you that a KKW cert. means little in & of itself. I have folks in my town with KKW certs that have never even SEEN a form, let alone been taught one. I'm saying that, for me as one who has one & is working hard to maintain it's meaning, I'm not going to go anywhere, yet.

I'm just less trustful of the singular person, with seemingly no ties to anyone, with their own organization, than I am with someone a KKW cert. I've been around long enough to smell :bs1:{beit from someone who claims (remember THAT is often in dispute, too) to have a KKW cert, or someone with a cert from an organization I've never heard of}. But, if I'm looking at school windows, I'm more likely to go check out a school that claims KKW afilliation, than I am to check out a school from a group I've not heard about. But I'm still gonna ask a lot of questions.:argue:

Iceman I totally agree with what you have to say, but look at GM Sells he is KKW certified and still has his own org. on the side to make money and remember I am not saying anything bad about him. I have meet and talked to him and seems like a great guy, but even he wants something in the form of cash to belong to his org and to be frankly with you it is steep in my opinion. Do you get alot from his org. yes and is it worth it most likely so. We have had these type of converstations before and I do not believe the KKW and other such orgs. are a bad thing but it sure can become so if the wrong person starts to dis like you and you know they all stick together in some ways. I am glad you are happy with your org and I am sure if I went that route I would be happy to. Have a wonderful and beautiful day

 

[Miles]

Iceman I am not saying cut ties with anybody me I have my KKW sort of and you know the story, so I will leave that alone. But if a few people like you me and some other forge ahead for the betterment of TKD and get it back to the roots that it was before McDojo's. That would be better for the future students of TKD. Please and you know this if you have the money you can get a KKW cert. from quite of few under liners, money talks and ******** walks. In my area there are maybe 12 people in the last year that have recieved KKW and they cannot even throw a roundhouse the right way and now they have saterlite schools for those that got them there KKW cert. and are making them more money. This is killing me and the art I love. Maybe we as a whole need to stand up for what is right and do something about it.

The KKW relies upon the recommending instructor. If that instructor's standards are minimal, the student will not be qualified. The student suffers and the art suffers by extension.

As Terry says at the end, we need to stand up and do what is right-help those who are not qualified to become qualified.

Miles

 

[terryl965]

The KKW relies upon the recommending instructor. If that instructor's standards are minimal, the student will not be qualified. The student suffers and the art suffers by extension.

As Terry says at the end, we need to stand up and do what is right-help those who are not qualified to become qualified.

Miles

Thank you Miles and Yes we need to help those get to the proper level.

 

[matt.m]

I would agree that the level of knowledge and proficiency of technique is equal in both organizations.
However,the ITF was essentially a cult of personality, based primarily on what Choi felt should be taught. When he died, the model for learning stopped.

I disagree wholeheartedly with this statement. I am sorry, but you never perfect technique, ever. You can become "Masterful" at it. However, not perfect. I have to do the I.T.F. and W.T.F. hyungs and poomsea for belt testing. As they progress in difficulty the W.T.F. poomsea with their walking stances and other high stances, not too mention lack of originality as they mock the I.T.F. Hyungs very much.

I am sorry to say, even though I do like both sets and do them daily and different tensions and tempos, (Muscle toning and Physical Therapy). I am here to tell you that beyond a shadow of a doubt that the I.T.F. Hyungs are much more powerful and intrecant during transitions.

Just to prove a point in class a few weeks ago I was doing Do-San. With my left forearm I broke through 2, inch and a quarter pine. With the reverse punch I went through 3. That is just the first movement in the hyung.

So it would compare like so
Il Jang Chong Ji
Ee Jang Dan-Gun
Sam Jang Do-San

It is all about the proper dropping of the hip, rotation of hand/arm or it is worthless.

I honestly didn't do a Tae Guek that I really appreciated until Sa-Jang. Oh-Jang is beautiful but not nearly as powerful as Yul-Guk.

But there again I am a Yudo Instructor with my deep back ground in hapkido which requires nice deep and powerful stances.

Miles, in your post you made the comment "It is up to the instructor to with hold the standards and integrity." No truer words could be said my friend.

 

[matt.m]

There are problems at both levels, the individual shady school and the corrupt superorg. But my feeling, like Terry's, is that the latter is the more damaging and ominous one. The vast amounts of cash that flow through the KKW system make it vulnerable to corruption (and boy, have we seen some high profile examples, eh?) and like an infection, anything that happens in such a top-down outfit is going to poison the whose structure in a systemic way. There's reason to believe, from stories like Terry's, Kwan Jang's and others, that that's already been happening.

I have friends from Black Belt factories here in St. Louis that are red and black belts, within a year and a half, that make more mistakes in poomsea than I do. And not to be demeaning but I am only a blue belt in TKD, which I was awarded in Dec. of 06. So that means I have Purple, Brown, Red, then Dan to go, I am a firm believer that slow and steady wins the race, I guess I am either a tortoise or retarded when it comes to getting rank. However, being an instructor I expect more out of myself just on principle. Not to mention that I wear two titanium custom fit leg braces that is part of the reason I was discharged from the USMC.

Yep you heard it straight from the horse's mouth......10 friends from 4 different black belt factories.:erg: