What has the Kukkiwon done for you?

[terryl965]

Originally Posted by matt.m
Also, my last question to you is this "If the I.T.F. Hyungs haven't changed since their inception then why have the W.T.F. poomsea changed several times? I have heard mention that they are wanting to change them again."

This is my beliefs and is in no way the gospel truth:

Since the beginning of the KKW they have been trying to cut all ties and make themself out to be more than anyone else. To do this they needed to change everything until they believe they got it right. We have had alot of people try and get it right and make changes to accomadate thing. But wait there is more they are developing another set so it would go hand to hand with the sport aspect and leave the SD principle out all together.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

The problem, as I see it, is not the instruction - the problem is that too few of them (most, IMHO) failed to learn from the example set by the ITF - that a single person, no matter how dynamic, cannot lead the way Gen. Choi did, because none of them are him. I know several of the GMs in question, and they lead great organizations - the problems occur when they try to combine their organizations, because they try to remain too much control over how the organization is run, not because of technical issues, but because of administrative issues. Until that changes, the problems will continue, because it's not a good business model.

Makes you think eh? About the ITF and WTF moving closer together. What a mammoth challenge.

 

[exile]

Also, my last question to you is this "If the I.T.F. Hyungs haven't changed since their inception then why have the W.T.F. poomsea changed several times? I have heard mention that they are wanting to change them again."

This is interesting. The ITF Hyung have been tampered with slightly. Apart from the elimination from the ITF of the Shotokan kata Choi included in his earlier publication, Juche has also replaced Kodang. Recently sine wave has been emphasised

As Deep Throat told Woodward and Bernstein, Follow the money. This is what Rob McLain has posted on the topic of the Palgwes and why they were sidelined... read it and weep:

They were replaced only two years after their inception in 1972 by the 8 Taek Guek forms because of a Korean Master that attended the KTA Palgue clinics in 1972 and learned these forms during their introduction. He returned to the US and published the first English book on these forms as an attempt to help the KTA and show the world what was created. He even dedicated the book to Kim Um-Yong, KTA President.

This same Korean Master also published an article on the 1967 version of Koryo hyung in the Karate Illustrated Magazine in 1973. Because this Master didn't join the KTA(WTF) and instead preserved the old karate and chuan-fa forms from his old kwan, many KTA officials were angry that he was the first to publish and thought he was trying to steal the forms. So, they (KTA/WTF) changed the Gup-level requirements from Palgue 1-8 to the new 1974 forms Tau Guek 1-8 and created a new version of Koryo.

The first book on Paglue forms in "Palgue 1-2-3 of TaeKwondo Hyung," by Kim Soo. Ohara Publications, 1973.

For years he (Grandmaster Kim Soo) didn't know why they changed the forms, but he was later told by one of his junior friends - who was secretary general of the WTF.​

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Unbelievable. Wouldnt fit with KMA history otherwise though I suppose!

 

[terryl965]

As Deep Throat told Woodward and Bernstein, Follow the money. This is what Rob McLain has posted on the topic of the Palgwes and why they were sidelined... read it and weep:

They were replaced only two years after their inception in 1972 by the 8 Taek Guek forms because of a Korean Master that attended the KTA Palgue clinics in 1972 and learned these forms during their introduction. He returned to the US and published the first English book on these forms as an attempt to help the KTA and show the world what was created. He even dedicated the book to Kim Um-Yong, KTA President. ​

This same Korean Master also published an article on the 1967 version of Koryo hyung in the Karate Illustrated Magazine in 1973. Because this Master didn't join the KTA(WTF) and instead preserved the old karate and chuan-fa forms from his old kwan, many KTA officials were angry that he was the first to publish and thought he was trying to steal the forms. So, they (KTA/WTF) changed the Gup-level requirements from Palgue 1-8 to the new 1974 forms Tau Guek 1-8 and created a new version of Koryo.​

The first book on Paglue forms in "Palgue 1-2-3 of TaeKwondo Hyung," by Kim Soo. Ohara Publications, 1973.​

For years he (Grandmaster Kim Soo) didn't know why they changed the forms, but he was later told by one of his junior friends - who was secretary general of the WTF.​

Here lays a problem with the above statement the WTF was not around during the KTA days, they came in right after the Kukkiwon to over see the sport side of TKD so how could this Korean Master do as to what was said. Now if they said he learned the KTA poomsae's and brought them back and written a book on the new set of poomsae's without bring up the WTF then I would agree. To much BS coming from some where.

 

[rmclain]

Here lays a problem with the above statement the WTF was not around during the KTA days, they came in right after the Kukkiwon to over see the sport side of TKD so how could this Korean Master do as to what was said. Now if they said he learned the KTA poomsae's and brought them back and written a book on the new set of poomsae's without bring up the WTF then I would agree. To much BS coming from some where.

The KTA introduced these new Palgue forms at special clinics for Masters and instructors held in 1972. The Palgue forms were intended for gup-grade holders of Taekwondo. I believe Grandmaster Kim still has the original 1972 clinic pamphlets with the Palgue forms instruction from the clinics. These pamphlets were given to attendees of the clinics.

In 1973 the WTF was founded. I don't care enough about the WTF or taekwondo to have researched whether the KTA became the WTF, was merged into it, or whatever. I'll let a TKD historian fill this in. All I know is the WTF used the Palgue forms for gup-grade holders for awhile and some WTF-related TKD schools still use them (such as Grandmaster Roy Kurban's school in Arlington, Tx).

-Palgue 1-2-3 of Taekwondo Hyung was published in 1973. Someone borrowed my copy of this book, but Master Stoker can reference the dedication part (I gave him a copy a few years ago).

In 1974, the WTF introduced the TaeGuek forms as replacements for the Palgue forms, and introduced a replacement Koryo form.

R. McLain

 

[terryl965]

The KTA introduced these new Palgue forms at special clinics for Masters and instructors held in 1972. The Palgue forms were intended for gup-grade holders of Taekwondo. I believe Grandmaster Kim still has the original 1972 clinic pamphlets with the Palgue forms instruction from the clinics. These pamphlets were given to attendees of the clinics.

In 1973 the WTF was founded. I don't care enough about the WTF or taekwondo to have researched whether the KTA became the WTF, was merged into it, or whatever. I'll let a TKD historian fill this in. All I know is the WTF used the Palgue forms for gup-grade holders for awhile and some WTF-related TKD schools still use them (such as Grandmaster Roy Kurban's school in Arlington, Tx).

-Palgue 1-2-3 of Taekwondo Hyung was published in 1973. Someone borrowed my copy of this book, but Master Stoker can reference the dedication part (I gave him a copy a few years ago).

In 1974, the WTF introduced the TaeGuek forms as replacements for the Palgue forms, and introduced a replacement Koryo form.

R. McLain

Yes GM Kurban still teaches these poomsae's and the dedication in the book
PALGUE 1.2.3 of Tae Kwon Do Hyung by Kim Pyung Soo

Dedication

To MR Un Yong Kim, President, Korea TaeKwonDo Association

Master McLain I have the book on my desk and me and the family have enjoyed your very generous gift. I also picked up 4.5.6. and a used copied of 7.8 great resource for the older poomsae's.

Thank you once again

 

[Errant108]

Any of those books have the 1967 Koryo?

 

[Kacey]

Kacey, I pose this question to you.......considering that there are 3 factions calling themselves the "Real" I.T.F. which one do you find most prevelant.

It's hard to say. Different ITFs are prevalent in different countries - but ITF-Canada seems to be losing ground left and right. Part of the problem is that more and more groups are becoming independent of any ITF - and the ones who aren't independent are willing to hop groups as it suits them. Many of the seniors know each other - many of the seniors in the US have known each other for decades and used to work out together, largely (although not exclusively) in the USTF. Therefore, they are willing to work together, at least on occasion.

The association I belong to is not a member of any ITF, for reasons not relevant to this discussion, although individual members are members of the ITF (Canada) for the purpose of international competition. And that's okay with me! For those few who want to compete at that level, membership is mandatory - for the rest... it's the same issue that appears to come up with the Kukkiwon - why pay to join, if you get nothing for your money? Why pay extra for a certificate signed by people who don't know you? If you need it for competition - so be it. If you're not going to compete at that level - why pay? Until one (or more) of these organizations starts providing value for fees, they are going to continue to have the same problems they have now.

 

[rmclain]

Any of those books have the 1967 Koryo?

No, these books only have the Palgue forms.

But, the 1967 Koryo was featured in an article in the (now) defunct Karate Illustrated magazine in 1969, written by Grandmaster Kim Soo. I've read that article. It has photos showing some of the movements in the form. The article title is something like, "Koryo: One of the new forms from Korea." A copy of that article hangs on the wall at the Chayon-Ryu HQ dojang in Houston.

R. McLain

 

[terryl965]

No, these books only have the Palgue forms.

But, the 1967 Koryo was featured in an article in the (now) defunct Karate Illustrated magazine in 1969, written by Grandmaster Kim Soo. I've read that article. It has photos showing some of the movements in the form. The article title is something like, "Koryo: One of the new forms from Korea." A copy of that article hangs on the wall at the Chayon-Ryu HQ dojang in Houston.

R. McLain

I believe GM Kurban still teaches the older version and has it down in a booklet for his student maybe a PM to him would bring this form back to life. I know when Zachary compited in the TKL his organization years ago they always had Koryo 1 & 2 being shown there,

 

[IcemanSK]

Here is the original Koryo form.

 

[matt.m]

I believe that Kacey and I have hit the nail on the head. If you want to compete in the higher shows you have to have the paper that says you can.

In the end it all boils down to what you want personally, if you want it then get it. If you don't then why bother. That is why I gave my class the option for U.S.J.A. cert through the gup ranks or not.

Oh and Kacey, food for thought......I know there are 3 divisions that say they are the "Official I.T.F." It's all politics. Rightfully I believe it should be the aspect of Choi's son. However, by human nature a lot of people are indeed greedy.

That is why I stand by the statement that "When it comes down to it, it will always be about the instructor and their class. Period, end of story."

 

[matt.m]

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think the emphasis is very different.



This is interesting. The ITF Hyung have been tampered with slightly. Apart from the elimination from the ITF of the Shotokan kata Choi included in his earlier publication, Juche has also replaced Kodang. Recently sine wave has been emphasised

I take your point regarding Taeguk Poomsae, I believe they should have left them be. This causes great problems IMHO. I think the changes are again more a change of emphasis towards sport.

I understand you perspective, however if an emphasis is different while using same types of techniques then that makes them different altogether. Plus, I do understand that some....not all of the original Kwan masters came from Shotokan style. But when Choi designed the 8 Hyungs the footwork and emphasis of technique is totally different. So I have seen many a book called "Korean Karate" but I am gonna tell you from 1st hand experience that shotokan and I.T.F. tae kwon do are a million miles apart. I am referring to one of my Yudo students is also taking tkd. He has shown enough exampling as well as having his brown to convince me.

I know GGM Hildebrand has stated that his original Gi was the Karate style. That is ok. No harm, but that is a minor influence change.

Whereas when you look at the Hyungs vs. the Poomsea, yeah there are similiarites in techniques, even pattern structure. However, red is red. If it is a looser form without the same ideas of power then they are no means comparable. I am not here to be a fanboy of either, I love them both but it just seems that the W.T.F. has done everything it can to align itself more as sport TKD, than traditional. That is a whole new conversation that would be beating a dead horse imho."

 

[rmclain]

I believe GM Kurban still teaches the older version and has it down in a booklet for his student maybe a PM to him would bring this form back to life. I know when Zachary compited in the TKL his organization years ago they always had Koryo 1 & 2 being shown there,

Yes, GM Kurban still teaches it as does one of his masters, Mike Johnson, who has his school on Cooper St in Arlington (Texas BB Academy) and instructs the for-credit PE TKD classes at UTA. He also took over the UTA for-credit Women self-defense classes when I left the university (I was director and instructor for those classes for 2.5 years).

As a side note: GM Kurban sent his black belts to Houston in the late 1960's to learn Koryo (among the other TKD BB forms - Tae Baek, Baek Jae, Jee Tae, etc.) from Grandmaster Kim Soo. Here is a photo from one of the clinics: http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-first30/firstclinic.html

We still learn Koryo, Tae Baek and Jee Tae from the TKD BB list. But, Grandmaster Kim adjusted the ranks at which students learn those in Chayon-Ryu since they are not really very advanced forms. In addition to the karate and chuan-fa forms, Koryo is taught at 4th Gup (purple belt), Tae Baek at 3rd Gup Purple belt and Jee Tae is taught at 2nd gup brown belt.

R. McLain

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Gen. Choi didnt develop the Chang Hon (ITF) forms himself. One of the creators was not a student of Shotokan. Hence any diffferences.

I agree with your observations regarding the Taeguk poomsae, I feel that the ITF hyung do contain more down and dirty real life techniques and that the Taeguks are weakened in this regard with every subsequent tampering.

 

[terryl965]

Yes, GM Kurban still teaches it as does one of his masters, Mike Johnson, who has his school on Cooper St in Arlington (Texas BB Academy) and instructs the for-credit PE TKD classes at UTA. He also took over the UTA for-credit Women self-defense classes when I left the university (I was director and instructor for those classes for 2.5 years).

As a side note: GM Kurban sent his black belts to Houston in the late 1960's to learn Koryo (among the other TKD BB forms - Tae Baek, Baek Jae, Jee Tae, etc.) from Grandmaster Kim Soo. Here is a photo from one of the clinics: http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-first30/firstclinic.html

We still learn Koryo, Tae Baek and Jee Tae from the TKD BB list. But, Grandmaster Kim adjusted the ranks at which students learn those in Chayon-Ryu since they are not really very advanced forms. In addition to the karate and chuan-fa forms, Koryo is taught at 4th Gup (purple belt), Tae Baek at 3rd Gup Purple belt and Jee Tae is taught at 2nd gup brown belt.

R. McLain

Very nice picture and Yes I was aware of Mike Johnson since he is only 1/2 mile from me. We have been friends a long time. Glad to see some people are still holding on to the old forms.

 

[Kacey]

I believe that Kacey and I have hit the nail on the head. If you want to compete in the higher shows you have to have the paper that says you can.

In the end it all boils down to what you want personally, if you want it then get it. If you don't then why bother. That is why I gave my class the option for U.S.J.A. cert through the gup ranks or not.

I agree. My students have the option of ITF certification - but I've never had one want it; nor have they been interested in my ITF certification (through III Dan; we weren't in the ITF when I tested for IV Dan, and I didn't want it - nor could I afford it).

Oh and Kacey, food for thought......I know there are 3 divisions that say they are the "Official I.T.F." It's all politics. Rightfully I believe it should be the aspect of Choi's son. However, by human nature a lot of people are indeed greedy.

This is a discussion for another thread... and honestly, I've been through this issue too many times, with too many people who are emotionally invested in it, and then try to justify their emotional opinion with after-the-fact logic. I'm not saying that's you - just that this is an issue I don't really want to discuss any further.

That is why I stand by the statement that "When it comes down to it, it will always be about the instructor and their class. Period, end of story."

Of course it is... anyone who believes otherwise places too much emphasis on lineage and not enough on what's happening in the dojang.

 

[zDom]

What has the kukkiwon done for ME?

Reinforced that I made the right decision in dropping taekwondo and focusing on hapkido.

 

[DB1500]

After reading this I tend to agree with the fact that for the most part the Kukkiwon has done nothing for most of us exept take our money and send us a certificate that used to mean something but dosnt anymore. One reason we now go to interschool certificates.