Compulsory Poomsae at Olympics

[IcemanSK]

I've thought that Olympic TKD competitors should also have to do compulsory poomsae (like figure skaters have to do figures). It's a simple way to keep the ART in Olympic TKD.

We can still have Poomsae Championships, too. But the fighters need to have the connection to the art, too.

Thoughts?

 

[Laurentkd]

I have always thought the exact same thing!! Performing forms shows a better balance of Taekwondo within the competitor. I for one hate going to even local tournments and seeing 3 people in a division for forms and then 15 in that same division for sparring. (I am even doubtful that the competitors we see at the upper levels of competition EVEr train forms). I think competing in both forms and sparring should be a must. I think it would even be cool to somehow combine the results of both to decide the overall winner. I've never seen a tournament run like that so I don't know how well it would work out. But I definetly think if you are going to compete in sparring you should also compete in forms, on any level including the Olympics

 

[MBuzzy]

I really think that adding Hyung into the Olympic competition would go a VERY VERY long way for TKD's reputation as well. There is a very large contingent who view TKD as only for competition and more of a sport than an art. There is a smaller group of those who do not respect the art because of these ideas.

Adding in the Poomse, would show the WORLD that TKD is more than just point sparring.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Let me put my vote in for them having to do forms also.
I am willing to bet that they learned a form befor they where allowed to spar in their first class so why do they not have to preform a form before being allowed to fight in the olimpics. Forms are a base in TKD and they should be highlighted in compition

 

[Kacey]

I agree as well - my sahbum competed internationally for over a decade, and brought home as many medals for tuls as for sparring (and breaking, too) - and he has always taught that proficiency in sparring and tuls is connected. I have yet to see any reason to disagree with him.

 

[exile]

This raises another question, though—what should the criteria be for evaluating poomse... actually, maybe that should be a different thread topic.

 

[foot2face]

I've thought that Olympic TKD competitors should also have to do compulsory poomsae (like figure skaters have to do figures). It's a simple way to keep the ART in Olympic TKD.

We can still have Poomsae Championships, too. But the fighters need to have the connection to the art, too.

Thoughts?

Judging by the previous post I'm going out on a limb here but I think that's a terrible idea. To outsiders it will look like dancing, only furthering the criticism directed at the art trough the sport. I can here it now "first they do a silly dance then they have a slapping match with their feet." Other than completely reworking the rule set of the sport, I'd much rather see compulsory breaking. They should require the athletes to preform breaks with various techniques, including hand strikes but especially the kicks used while sparring, demonstrating the power behind their blows.

 

[IcemanSK]

Judging by the previous post I'm going out on a limb here but I think that's a terrible idea. To outsiders it will look like dancing, only furthering the criticism directed at the art trough the sport. I can here it now "first they do a silly dance then they have a slapping match with their feet." Other than completely reworking the rule set of the sport, I'd much rather see compulsory breaking. They should require the athletes to preform breaks with various techniques, including hand strikes but especially the kicks used while sparring, demonstrating the power behind their blows.

Like in "Best of the Best." I still think that leaves the Art out of it.

 

[Hollywood1340]

This is very well and good, but the Olympics are about sport, not art. It is up to us to keep the art.

 

[exile]

Judging by the previous post I'm going out on a limb here but I think that's a terrible idea. To outsiders it will look like dancing, only furthering the criticism directed at the art trough the sport. I can here it now "first they do a silly dance then they have a slapping match with their feet." Other than completely reworking the rule set of the sport,

... which ain' gonna happen, as we all know...

...I'd much rather see compulsory breaking. They should require the athletes to preform breaks with various techniques, including hand strikes but especially the kicks used while sparring, demonstrating the power behind their blows.

I actually like this idea better than the idea for poomsae. Demonstration of effective power delivery is a very good bet—it ensures that practitioners aren't just throwing their legs around to get to places with their feet that most people would have trouble reaching with their hands, but that that movement is completely controlled, focused, and backed with a lot of power. Acrobatics is one thing, but an acrobatic pile-driver is something else completely.

 

[foot2face]

This is very well and good, but the Olympics are about sport, not art. It is up to us to keep the art.

Exactly, and let's face it, Olympic TKD has a reputation for being a "wussy" sport, reflecting poorly on the art. Most people think its light-contact point sparring, and don't recognize that its a full contact sport. Anything done to the sport that makes it look stronger can only be good for the art.

 

[Andrew Green]

I think it would be a bad idea.

Outside of TKD practitioners no one would care.

Judging would be VERY subjective, leading to a whole new type of problems. At that level everyone's forms are going to look good, unless it went acrobatic and freestyle forms it would be impossible to pick a winner, and become political in the decissions. Go freestyle and you up the difficulty, making judgin a little easier, but still very subjective, but that is not the "art" people that want forms in mean.

 

[jks9199]

I think it would be a bad idea.

Outside of TKD practitioners no one would care.

Judging would be VERY subjective, leading to a whole new type of problems. At that level everyone's forms are going to look good, unless it went acrobatic and freestyle forms it would be impossible to pick a winner, and become political in the decissions. Go freestyle and you up the difficulty, making judgin a little easier, but still very subjective, but that is not the "art" people that want forms in mean.

I don't think you'd necessarily have that problem, because it is ONLY TKD in the Olympics. As I understand it, it's only one or two of the TKD associations whose members are eligible to compete in the Olympics, right? A set of compulsory forms could be chosen or designated, with defined judging criteria, and judges trained on those criteria so that would greatly reduce the subjectivity of the judging.

 

[Andrew Green]

A set of compulsory forms could be chosen or designated, with defined judging criteria, and judges trained on those criteria so that would greatly reduce the subjectivity of the judging.

That's actually what I meant, with everyone doing the same forms at that level you're going to have a very hard time picking a winner in any way that doesn't come across as very subjective. Not to mention it would make for very bad TV.

 

[exile]

That's actually what I meant, with everyone doing the same forms at that level you're going to have a very hard time picking a winner in any way that doesn't come across as very subjective. Not to mention it would make for very bad TV.

Now that you mention it... compulsory figures were eliminated from the Olympics starting in the '94 event. And from what I've read on this, the increasing importance of securing television coverage (with figure skating competing for a fixed amount of air time against skiing, ski jumping, speed skating etc) pretty much doomed the compulsories (which had been steadily reduced in importance, as measured by the decline in score %age and by the number of figures demanded, from the mid-seventies on).

So maybe the Olympic figure skating story is telling us not to have compulsories...?

 

[Kacey]

Now that you mention it... compulsory figures were eliminated from the Olympics starting in the '94 event. And from what I've read on this, the increasing importance of securing television coverage (with figure skating competing for a fixed amount of air time against skiing, ski jumping, speed skating etc) pretty much doomed the compulsories (which had been steadily reduced in importance, as measured by the decline in score %age and by the number of figures demanded, from the mid-seventies on).

So maybe the Olympic figure skating story is telling us not to have compulsories...?

The question is - why do we want TKD in the Olympics, and what do we want people to see? The original hope was that more people would take TKD - but what they see in the Olympics is so far from what is done in most classes as to be meaningless, and has been gone over in numerous threads, most people see Olympic sparring as being less than realistic for self-defense. From that perspective, making forms compulsory for competition might change the public's perspective - but as exile notes, it might also further reduce the amount of TV time that TKD gets, which would certainly not help further the spread of TKD.

If we want people to see what TKD is like for most people (or any other sport, for that matter), then the Olympics is not the venue through which to do so, I don't think. But I don't know what the answer is about how to change that.

 

[terryl965]

Well all I can say is the member that have made the Olympic team for this next Olympics, would do very poorly in Poomsae since they never ever practice them to the meaning that needs to be done. Sport is and never will be equal to the Art ( Plain and simple). Npt one of them could explain any of the SD principle at all and beleive me I have meet them all and they are wonderful people but at this points in there training it is about sport and that is it.

I like the ideal about breaking as long as the Bricks and Boards are not Baked.

 

[exile]

The question is - why do we want TKD in the Olympics, and what do we want people to see? The original hope was that more people would take TKD - but what they see in the Olympics is so far from what is done in most classes as to be meaningless, and has been gone over in numerous threads, most people see Olympic sparring as being less than realistic for self-defense. From that perspective, making forms compulsory for competition might change the public's perspective - but as exile notes, it might also further reduce the amount of TV time that TKD gets, which would certainly not help further the spread of TKD.

If we want people to see what TKD is like for most people (or any other sport, for that matter), then the Olympics is not the venue through which to do so, I don't think. But I don't know what the answer is about how to change that.

I'm completely with you on this, Kacey, as you know. But the WTF/KKW think otherwise (I'm including KKW here because I cannot imagine their technical and curriculum views being independent of the official Korean line that TKD is, first and foremost, an Olympic sport). And as long as they're running the show, TKD will be an Olympian pursuit. That's why the question of 'Americanizing TKD' (as per one of the other current threads) is so important. A lot of that 'Americanizing' would be our own declaration of independence from the Korean national agenda. There's nothing wrong with it, for them. But our history, perspective and needs are different.

 

[terryl965]

The question is - why do we want TKD in the Olympics, and what do we want people to see? The original hope was that more people would take TKD - but what they see in the Olympics is so far from what is done in most classes as to be meaningless, and has been gone over in numerous threads, most people see Olympic sparring as being less than realistic for self-defense. From that perspective, making forms compulsory for competition might change the public's perspective - but as exile notes, it might also further reduce the amount of TV time that TKD gets, which would certainly not help further the spread of TKD.

If we want people to see what TKD is like for most people (or any other sport, for that matter), then the Olympics is not the venue through which to do so, I don't think. But I don't know what the answer is about how to change that.

TKD is like sport Karate or for that matter sport Kung-Fu and the rest of them it is worthles in any SD type of conflict and before I get bashed here Yes I teach the sports aspect to people that want that route but we tell them for the get go PLEASE do not use this in a confitation, for that came to our regular classes to learn SD.

The Olympics was about and is about competition and that is was TKD is for them a competition now sure they are making rules changes to include head shot and the use of hand techs, also they are making the fighter engage now and not stand there hoping for five minutes waiting to counter someone first move. Engagement needs to be done withen five second so they want action, which is great but it has rules and rules that need to be followed and those that play the game are some great people just like a Ice Skater or a sbow Boarder or Track and Field they are athletes playing in a rules infested competition.

 

[terryl965]

I'm completely with you on this, Kacey, as you know. But the WTF/KKW think otherwise (I'm including KKW here because I cannot imagine their technical and curriculum views being independent of the official Korean line that TKD is, first and foremost, an Olympic sport). And as long as they're running the show, TKD will be an Olympian pursuit. That's why the question of 'Americanizing TKD' (as per one of the other current threads) is so important. A lot of that 'Americanizing' would be our own declaration of independence from the Korean national agenda. There's nothing wrong with it, for them. But our history, perspective and needs are different.

Actually Exile if you ever go to the Kukiwon and do a Poomsae seminar there you will find it is more about the Art, the WTF is all about the sport. Sorry the Kukkiwon has some talented people there with a different view than most of the people with the WTF.