UFC Ready for Explosion

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

You can't have it both ways. Either we are talking MMA sparring vs Taijutsu randori or we are not.

But neither MMA nor Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu utilizes only one type of sparring, if you look at the thread I created you can see that there are quite a lot of variations.:asian:

And, we don't train how we fight. We fight how we train.

If so, quit training. You are a danger to yourself and others.

 

[teisatsu]

Wow.... again with the lack of reading comprehension.

I'm obviously fighting a losing battle. Correct or not.

Nimmy... train however you wish.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If your point is that MMA people and Bujinkan people train with different goals in mind, :cheers:

 

[Cryozombie]

Plus, Nim, you are the one who asked for a clarification of the differences between randori and sparring, and teisatsu simply proivided a definition.


​

 

[MJS]

I took the title of the thread as discussion of the rules of the UFC/NHB fights, as a comparison of the do's and don'ts of NHB and what can be done in BBT. This post:

Maybe not. However, in my experience, MMA people tend to prepare for their anticipated competitive environment and stick to principles that work for that situation. Randori is not confined by those rules. Yes it is a controlled situation but is controlled more in terms of speed and degree of response than by technique or rules restrictions. It's easier to increase speed in a real situation than it is to change conditioned response.

summed it up pretty good IMHO. While both are done in a controlled setting, there appear to be more restrictions in one, compared to the other.

Perhaps Nimravus, you can give your version of differences between the two.

Mike

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Plus, Nim, you are the one who asked for a clarification of the differences between randori and sparring, and teisatsu simply proivided a definition.​

Sorry. I know you guys aren't too big on irony, but it was a rhetorical question.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Perhaps Nimravus, you can give your version of differences between the two.
Mike

For simplicity's sake, I'm going to refer specifically to the type Nakadai reportedly uses. To begin with, there is a set attacker and defender (those who want to see NHB drills done under the same premises - check out Erik Paulson's "Game Development"), it is usually not done at 100 percent speed, there may be multiple attackers, and no protective equipment is usually required.

Now that we have that out of the way, what type of MMA sparring are we talking about? Stand-up? If so, with knees, elbows and takedowns or not? Grappling? If so, with striking, heelhooks, finger/wrist locks or not?

 

[Cryozombie]

Sorry. I know you guys aren't too big on irony, but it was a rhetorical question.

Ahhh.

It doesnt translate well in written format. Hard to read the intention of the post.

 

[DWeidman]

For simplicity's sake, I'm going to refer specifically to the type Nakadai reportedly uses. To begin with, there is a set attacker and defender (those who want to see NHB drills done under the same premises - check out Erik Paulson's "Game Development"), it is usually not done at 100 percent speed, there may be multiple attackers, and no protective equipment is usually required.

Now that we have that out of the way, what type of MMA sparring are we talking about? Stand-up? If so, with knees, elbows and takedowns or not? Grappling? If so, with striking, heelhooks, finger/wrist locks or not?

Without a very narrow definition of "sparring" - our (BBT) version of Randori *should* also be considered "sparring".

I also have an issue with Ben's comments - as I like to think I have a decent grasp BBT. I am sure Nakadai has "good" understanding of taijutsu.

Ben wrote:
Sparring is bad for your development in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. The end.

I can't agree with this.

I can agree that training for ring fighting only is bad for development in BBT.

I would love to hear reasons what in sparring specifically is "bad" and what in randori is "acceptable".

Sorry, I have tried to hit my instructor -- full speed, Tori / Tori. Is this sparring? Does this mean he isn't "good" - or that it was "bad" for him / me? Seems to me that I got nothing but great advice on what to work on from the exercise...

Then again, maybe I am just fooling myself... ;-)

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

 

[DWeidman]

Sparring
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sparring is a form of training common to many martial arts. Although the precise form varies, it is relatively free-form fighting, with enough rules, customs, or agreements to make injuries unlikely. By extension, argumentative debate is sometimes called "verbal sparring".

The physical nature of sparring naturally varies with the nature of the skills it is intended to develop; sparring in a striking art such as Savate will normally begin with the players at opposite corners of a ring and will be stopped if they clinch. Sparring in a grappling art such as judo might begin with the partners holding one another and end if they separate.

The organization of sparring matches also varies. If the participants know each other well and are friendly, it may be sufficient for them to simply play, without rules, referee, or timer. If the sparring is between strangers, or there is some emotional tension, or the sparring is being evaluated, it may be appropriate to introduce formal rules and have an experienced martial artist supervise the match.

Sparring is normally distinct from fights in competition. The goal of sparring is normally the education of the participants, while a competitive fight seeks to determine a winner.

The educational role of sparring is a matter of some debate. In any sparring match, precautions of some sort must be taken to protect the participants. These may include wearing protective gear, declaring certain techniques and targets off-limits, playing slowly or at a fixed speed, forbidding certain kinds of trickery, or one of many other possibilities. These precautions have the potential to change the nature of the skill that is being learned. For example, if one were to always spar with heavily padded gloves, one might come to rely on techniques that risk breaking bones in one's hand. Most schools recognize this problem but value sparring nonetheless because it forces the student to improvise, to think under pressure, and to keep their emotions under control.

Sparring has different names and different forms in various schools. Some schools prefer not to call it sparring, as they feel it differs in kind from what is normally called sparring.

• In Chinese martial arts, sparring is usually trained at first as individual applications, eventually combined as freestyle training of long, medium and short range techniques. See chin na, pushing hands.
• In Japanese martial arts, a sparring-like activity is usually called randori. In judo, this is essentially one-on-one sparring; in some forms of aikido it is a formalized form of sparring where one aikidoka defends against many attackers.

 

[Cryozombie]

Hmm. I really do think its a definition issue. When I think "Sparring" I think back to what we used to do back in my Hapkido days at that school... which is 99% different from what we do in Randori in my current BBT school.

So maybe the disagreements people are having is based on the fact that we have different understandings of what sparring is. *I* for one would NOT advocate sparring to increase BBT ability, IF its defined under what sparring was in my old Hapkido school... which is my only reference to actuall sparring, so it is what comes to mind when you say the word "Sparring".

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Where I train regularly, sparring does occur, in various forms, from time to time. Newaza is by far the most common. However, we always take it for what it is, i.e. we don't do it to find out "what works" or to "get used" to uncooperative opponents (if I haven't made that clear yet, you don't have to spar to encounter those...).

 

[DWeidman]

*I* for one would NOT advocate sparring to increase BBT ability, IF its defined under what sparring was in my old Hapkido school... which is my only reference to actuall sparring, so it is what comes to mind when you say the word "Sparring".

Would you change your mind after reading the wikipedia definition?

Curious...

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

 

[Cryozombie]

Would you change your mind after reading the wikipedia definition?

Curious...

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

Hmm, not really... because I have no real frame of reference to what that is exactly, only what someone wrote. IF I was INVOLVED in sparring and it was, say, like the randori we do... then I might, yeah. I'm absolutlry open to training that will work FOR ME, but you cant just tell me about it, I gotta see and do it. Or as close an approximation as I can at my level.

 

[DWeidman]

Hmm, not really... because I have no real frame of reference to what that is exactly, only what someone wrote. IF I was INVOLVED in sparring and it was, say, like the randori we do... then I might, yeah. I'm absolutlry open to training that will work FOR ME, but you cant just tell me about it, I gotta see and do it. Or as close an approximation as I can at my level.

I am trying to understand this:

If you liked "apples" - but didn't like "oranges" - but found out that what you called an "apple" was really an "orange" - you would still say you didn't like "oranges"?

Can you really not extend written word into reality? Seriously?

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

 

[MJS]

Yes, after reading the various descriptions, I can see where there can be many different meanings/understandings, etc., so I can see where the confusion comes into play.

I've always looked at sparring meaning putting on protective padding, ie: gloves, headgear, etc. and throwing punches and kicks, the goal being to hit or tag the person with those strikes. There are set rules as to the targets available for striking, etc.

I've looked at the randori or SD aspect of it as a predetermined or randomly thrown attack, and the other person executes a defense. While it is still done in a controlled fashion, there are no off limit areas as to where strikes can be applied.

Mike

 

[Seattletcj]

How about this... for ease of discussion the wikapedia definition will be used as the point of reference....unless someone has a better definition.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I've always looked at sparring meaning putting on protective padding, ie: gloves, headgear, etc. and throwing punches and kicks, the goal being to hit or tag the person with those strikes. There are set rules as to the targets available for striking, etc.

I think it would be a tad farfetched to thusly label all sorts of takedown/submission grappling as "randori", don't you think? (not saying anyone does, but I'm trying to make a point)

 

[Cryozombie]

I am trying to understand this:

If you liked "apples" - but didn't like "oranges" - but found out that what you called an "apple" was really an "orange" - you would still say you didn't like "oranges"?

Can you really not extend written word into reality? Seriously?

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

Your comparison is off... it would be closer to:

You dislike oranges, but like apples. One day a dude comes and says "here have this orange" and you say... "No dude, I dont like oranges." and he says, "Oh, but its good, and crunchy, and has a shiny red skin" and you go... "sounds like you are describing an apple" and he says "No man... its an ORANGE"...

I dunno about you, but I'd be skeptical UNTIL I tasted it... regardless of what wording he used. Why? Because I dont like oranges.

 

[Cryozombie]

Or maybe I wrote that backwards... But you get my meaning.

Regardless of what you "call it" my PERSONAL experience has been that they are different, so until I experience things the other way, then no, I dont think the written words matter.

I could write Football is a sport where you kick a small round ball with your feet, and keep your hands off of it.... but where Im from that isnt football.