UFC Ready for Explosion

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by bencole, Mar 14, 2006.

  1. bencole

    bencole Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Seeing how we always seem to come back to these same arguments of "martial arts" vs. "martial sports," I thought it would be nice to preserve this link.

    http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/5373408?print=true

    This article is a fascinating look at how the introduction of rules and government oversight have helped UFC grow into a legitimate SPORT.

    -ben

    -=-=-=-=-

    UFC conducts its bouts under rules that are becoming widely accepted as industry standards in commission states. Here is a partial list of UFC do's and don'ts:


    What's legal

    Punching
    Elbowing
    Kicking and kneeing standing fighters
    Wrestling takedowns and throws
    Olympic judo-style chokes
    Submission joint locks

    What's not

    Head butts
    Eye gouging
    Hair-pulling
    Groin strikes
    Strikes to the spine or back of the head
    Kicking, kneeing or stomping a grounded opponent
    Holding the fence for leverage
    Throat strikes
     
  2. bencole

    bencole Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Please note that this thread was started because there seems to be a never-ending debate over whether certain types of training, such as sparring, are appropriate for those pursuing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

    Those supporting the "pro-sparring" stance believe that sparring and competitions, such as those practiced in MMA, build skills that mirror real life encounters. They claim that if you cannot handle yourself in a ring, then you cannot handle yourself on the street.

    Those supporting the "anti-sparring" stance believe that sparring and competitions, because of the banning of certain techniques (e.g. no hair-pulling) and the adherence of rules (e.g. no throwing sand in the face of your opponent, or no hiding knives behind your thigh), actually do a poor job of mirroring real life encounters.

    The "anti-sparring" group, of which I am a card-carrying member, believe that sparring teaches a mentality and encourages habits that are detrimental to one's development in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

    As an aside, the front page of the Wall Street Journal today (3/15/06) has a similar article about how UFC is replacing boxing as the fighting sport of choice.

    Regards,

    -ben
     
  3. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    MAP Hell
    I'm no card-carrying member of the vale tudo crowd, but I still think Rorion Gracie had at least one good point when he said "you can't even handle one person, why are you worrying about more?"
     
  4. heretic888

    heretic888 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,723
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Dale just posted this article over at Martial Arts Planet recently. It was so damn good, I thought it beared repeating here:

    Laterz.
     
  5. Monadnock

    Monadnock 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    717
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Land-of-the-self-proclaimed-10th-Dan's
    Do you think this is true for all martial arts, or just BBT? If you do not want to comment on other martial arts, I'd be just as happy to know more on why you think it is so for BBT, specifically, what part of the pratictioner's development?

    Thanks,
    Mike
     
  6. bencole

    bencole Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I will not comment on the role/efficacy of sparring in other martial arts (despite my experience in several arts). My concern is with practitioners of other arts (usually MMA guys) who insist that practitioners of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu MUST spar or they will get killed in a "real fight." In their eyes, sparring is the "closest thing" to a real fight and so the exclusion of sparring means that BBT=crap. We frequently see similar questions from noobies to the Bujinkan arts, who have experience in other arts, and question why their teachers do not actively spar. Here is my response to such inquiries:

    In Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, we teach you how to respond, rather than react. There is a huge difference between the two. The only specifics anyone can give you is to point you to all the practitioners who have used Taijutsu in their actual lives in order to avert or survive potential disasters.

    For me, it would be my friend who got hit by a taxi in Tokyo while on a bicycle, was thrown fifteen feet sidewise and rolled right up unscathed. Or my friend who successfully defended a family trapped in their car from a large group of weapon wielding punks. Or a friend who "unbalanced" a crazed druggie in a hotel lobby merely through words and body language. Or perhaps that man from Eastern Europe (Croatia? Serbia?) who had his leg blown off by a landmine and crawled miles, bleeding all the way, to get help. After a several hour trip, on his belly and in later by vehicle, he survives to this day because of his sheer strength of will to live. All of these examples embody the teachings of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and NONE of these could be attributed to sparring.

    In my opinion, and in the opinions of people with vastly more skill and experience in our art, sparring creates a mentality that there is only one way to resolve an issue. Sparring creates habits and reactions; it gets you to think within a box and within a framework.

    Before you got into the toe-to-toe situation, what brought you to this point? Were you situationally aware? Were you an egotistical ******* or did you simply find yourself in the wrong place by happenstance?

    Once you do end up toe-to-toe, when you are focused intentedly upon your sparring partner, have you forgotten that guy behind you who just came back from the bathroom and has found his friend facing off with you? Did you remember him? Did you notice that he had come in with your adversary at all?

    Once fists are flying, are you focusing on trying to "get techniques" to "win"? Have you forgotten that you could put an ura gyaku on anyone with greasy pinky fingers, if you would just focus on controlling the kukan? Did you know that at the highest levels of BBT, there truly are no "openings." That's because you are the one molding your fate, in real time.
    The world is much more complex than sparring would have you believe. It takes a lot to get into a fight, make it through a fight, and avoid jailtime after a fight. If you want to learn JUST how to fight, there are far faster ways to learn than through Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. If you want to learn how to live and survive, it will take some time, but we've got some things that we'd like to show you."


    -ben
     
  7. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2003
    Messages:
    9,998
    Likes Received:
    206
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Damn Ben.

    :asian:

    I hope someday, I am 1/2 that wise.
     
  8. DWeidman

    DWeidman Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I agree with the above as long as the wording is lightened a bit: Sparring doesn't "create a mentality..." - but rather it MAY create a mentality...

    Not everyone who spars regularly is trapped by these issues - just as there are plenty of people who handle themselves well despite no full speed training.

    Slow training *may* create effective habits that can be used in real time (full speed) encounters...

    Sparring *may* create mental boxes (boundaries) to the detriment of the individual practicing the art...

    This isn't black and white.

    -Daniel Weidman
    Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

    PS> I am even ok with the wording "tends to"...
     
  9. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    12,651
    Likes Received:
    2,391
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    I think DWEIDMAN has raised a very valid point. One of the biggest problems that I see with the never-ending debat over reality-testing your fighting skills is that absolutely nothing is guaranteed one way or the other. Many methods of training exist, all designed to develop competent fighting skills. These methods do not work equally well for everyone, for a variety of reasons. But they all work, in their way.

    Would an experienced MMA fighter prevail in a fight on the street? Quite possibly, but it's not guaranteed.

    Would a traditionalist who practices technique application in a controlled dojo setting prevail in a fight on the street? Quite possibly, but it's not guaranteed.

    Would a traditionalist who practices mostly kata, but intellectually understands the application of the kata prevail in a fight on the street? Quite possibly, but it's not guaranteed.

    Would a sport tournament fighter prevail in a fight on the street? Quite possibly, but it's not guaranteed.

    And the same is true in reverse. COuld any of these people be defeated in a fight on the street? of course, but it's not guaranteed.

    No matter what method one uses to develop their fighting skills, true combat is always a step up. You cannot practice for combat using real combat. People get seriously injured and killed in combat. So we do our best to prepare in what way seems most appropriate and reasonable, and this will differ from person to person, but understand that when it comes down on the street, IT WILL BE DIFFERENT, and you can never fully prepare for that. That's just reality for ya.

    I just don't see a need for the constant arguing over whether or not this or that method is adequate. It both is, and it isn't. It depends on the individual, and it will also depend on the circumstances on the street.

    This argument seems to be happening on several threads right now, so I just thought i'd put in my thoughts.
     
  10. Monadnock

    Monadnock 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    717
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Land-of-the-self-proclaimed-10th-Dan's
    This is true and these are good points. I think a lot of this is left out of most schools as the focus is more on points, staying toe to toe, and winning. Not surviving. The physical part is usually the attraction to a lot of new martial artists. They need to be entertained, or are there to stroke their egos. A good school will offer more. Anyways, thanks for sharing.

    Mike
     
  11. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,522
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Japan
    Depends on how you define "Handle" does it not?

    One of the first guys who used me to thank Nagase for teaching him stuff that saved his life talked about the time he tried complaining about a loud party, only to find it was being held for some convicts just out of prison. It got violent and it ended up with four guys going back to jail.

    He did not defeat them, splat them or anything like that. But they never got their wish of splatting him either.

    In the UFC, the motive is to defeat the other guy. In taijutsu, the idea is to get home in one peice. Running? Great idea! But not for the UFC. The UFC and competitions build up habits of going after someone and defeating them. You can't defeat more than one person unless you are really, really good. But you can keep them from pounding you.

    I can't remember a time when I had a session with Hatsumi that he didn't end up having us be attacked in the middle of the previous technique by a third attacker. That tends to build up habits, and not ones you need for set rule competition. I think many Daikomyosai tapes show this type of thing if you need examples.

    And I would point out that I said competition. I know some Bujinkan members use a little free play as part of their training. Most of them tend to have different rules or situations to avoid getting into one training mode. So the debate about sparring is the subject of another thread.

    This thread kind of seems to be in counter to the line used by many that if you do not do well in a UFC, you art is not usefull for the real thing. Considering all the restrictions listed at the beggining of this thread, you see that the UFC is not the street and there is no way a general practicioner can do well against a specialist on the specialists home turf.
     
  12. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    MAP Hell
    Not going to say anything about the other "fouls", but in regards to eye gouging, fishhooking, hair pulling and biting, you simply cannot rely on those tactics saving the day for you. Doesn't matter if it's the street or in a match, you've got to be able to move around and utilize leverage (i.e. taijutsu).
     
  13. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,522
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Japan
    Ah, but there is the other side of the coin in terms of rules. When you have rules, things can't be used against you. And you get used to the idea of things not being used against you and fall into those habits. A case may be where you train in a situation where attacks agains the eyes are not allowed. You don't cover them up in your training and you don't get negative feedback. You can do better against those that waste their time trying to cover something that is off limits anyway. You train that way and that is the habit you build up for a real situation.

    So if you train only under certain rules, you may find yourself surprised in a situation where the other guy won't feel restrained about breaking them. You train yourself to leave open things and make moves that work in the rules but leave you vulnerable when the other guy is not playing nice. That is a bad thing, a very bad thing.
     
  14. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    MAP Hell
    You're preaching for someone who's already been converted. :asian:
     
  15. bencole

    bencole Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Um... I disagree. I used to wrestle in high school and so I have a fairly decent double leg takedown. After I started training in Taijutsu, I was instructed (along with a few others) to attack a senior student in precisely the same way that Don is describing.

    Being the type who always complained about how Bruce Lee's assailants would attack one after another, rather than all at once, I turned to my partners in crime and said, "I'll go low and give you time to get in on him."

    Three seconds later, I almost blacked out from confusion. I got in on my opponent's leg (as expected) but my brain suddenly shut down when my opponent thrust his hand into my mouth and yanked me off him by the inside of my cheek!!! HOLY MOLEY that was painful!!!

    THAT was something I had NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED as an option given my training. Had he had a weapon in his other hand, my five-second state of delirium would have put me in GRAVE danger.

    When you train with expectations of what is acceptable and what is not, you leave open holes for the sake of efficiency. Why cover something if it will not be in danger?

    I've seen Soke choke Mark O'Brien with his pony tail, for example. Is that hair pulling? I don't know. But it certainly was effective and led to Mark wearing a bandana from that day forward.

    %-}

    -ben
     
  16. bencole

    bencole Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Well, seeing how this is *MY* opinion :) and the opinion of others that I have heard, it is black and white. No "may."

    I have NEVER met anyone who has incorporated "sparring" regularly from Day 1 of their training who has achieved the level of understanding in our art that I would consider "good." From what I have seen, all it leads to is crap movement and big attitudes.

    If you know of anyone that I have missed, please inform. PM/email is okay.

    -ben
     
  17. DWeidman

    DWeidman Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    You just changed your statement. Now it has to be from Day 1? And what is "regularly"?

    How can anyone determine if someone else has a level of understanding that you would consider "good"?

    Would you consider Nagato in this statement? He started sparring early in his career - and has a pretty decent knowledge base. How about Soke? Before Takamatsu - Judo has a decent amount of sparring in it...

    Just playing devil's advocate on this.

    And without the additional verbage of "regularly" and "Day 1" - I still think you are myopic on this topic.

    -Daniel Weidman
    Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

    PS> I still agree with the reason for starting this thread - in that the UFC isn't the "proving grounds" for real budo...
     
  18. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    48
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    MAP Hell
    I've been able to successfully hold down people stronger than myself in a kesa gatame while they tried fishhooking me in the mouth. I've also unsuccessfully tried to use the same tactic myself. There are no guarantees, especially not if adrenaline enters into the equation.

    As with Don's post, no objections.
     
  19. bencole

    bencole Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Fine. Retract those points. Still doesn't matter. I'll repeat *MY* opinion for you, Dan:

    Sparring is bad for your development in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. The end.

    I can. Others can. Don't know why you couldn't, Dan, if you know what you are doing.... :D

    If the purpose of your training is to GET GOOD in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, then you should NOT spar, IN MY OPINION.

    Again, I have never seen ANYONE who has used sparring to better their Taijutsu IN A WAY THAT *I* AND *SOME OF MY SENIORS WHO ALSO HAVE AN EYE FOR "GOOD TAIJUTSU"* could see.

    Yup.

    Neither Soke nor Nagato would be where they are today IN TERMS OF THE MOVEMENT IN BUJINKAN BUDO TAIJUTSU had they NOT given up their sparring practices of their youth. Granted there is no way of "proving this" because you don't buy that there is actually a way of saying what is "good" and object to me placing further refinements in my statement.

    I feel consoled that both Nagato-sensei and Hatsumi-sensei agree with this assessment BASED UPON MY PERSONAL CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM. That, combined with my own subjective assessments of "goodness," is good enough for me.

    Not myopic, dogmatic. :D I've seen enough and been through enough to NOT be myopic about this issue.

    -ben
     
  20. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2003
    Messages:
    9,998
    Likes Received:
    206
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Gentlemen,

    Before this heats up, I just want to remind everyone posting here to keep the conversation polite...

    This can be a heated issue, and I just dont want to see it spark into a full fledged flame.

    Thanks!123
     

Share This Page