Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by bencole, Mar 14, 2006.
So what about what Nakadai's doing?
Well, there is the start of some meeting on common ground. If we all agree that an art that does well in the UFC might not be the best one you want as a civilian on the street we may just keep talking with each other rather than at each other.
You tell me what you think he is doing....
Hi everyone. Let me preface this by saying, I think individuals should train in whatever they dig! Period!
Although I don't train in Ninjutsu. But I posted here because the topic was on MMA and my questions, I think, are as valid here as anywhere else. There is a lot of talk about assumptions in MMA. But I believe there is a lot of misunderstand about what MMA is and especially what it isn’t. Why do a lot of individual believe that because someone trains MMA they don't train weapons? I am a certified instructor thru several different firearms schools. Or that MMA individuals don't train in area awareness, the assumption is that MMA people have blinders on and are oblivious to their surroundings? Training in MMA doesn’t make you ignore what is going on around you. No the ring is not the street; the ring is a sportive competition that two individuals agree before hand what the rules are. Why do individual assume MMAer’s won’t use “dirt”; eye gouges groin shots etc? An individual gave the example of getting fish hooked and had never expected it, I wonder if the next time he shoots he will be aware of that technique? Sparring is not the street, but it is the closest thing to safely training it. If you have a self defense school and you don’t train for multiple opponents and/ or weapons, shame on you. Because in an assault, the aggressors will never attack unless the have some sort of advantage. But the mental and “tactical” aspects of self defense don’t take nearly as much time to develop
As the physical attributes do. Heck, most of the mental aspect can be summed up as, listen to your brain, not your ego. Don’t go to bad places if you don’t have to and if you are fighting never quit until the fight is done. And as far as tactics go, tactics change upon contact, so if an individual has never experienced this contact how will they be able to change their tactics?
Not trying to start anything, just trying to figure out, or maybe shed some light on this either/or dichotomy
My then teacher went to Japan in 2001 and trained with Nakadai, during which they did a kind of randori in which there is a set attacker and defender. The attacker uses any types of kicks and punches, and the defender takes him down however he sees fit. All done at probably between 50-75 percent speed at the most. According to a lady from our dojo who visited Japan last autumn and earned her shodan there (from Nakadai, I think), he's still at it.
Marvin... you are correct in that simply because one trains/studies MMA one is not oblivious to their surroundings. And you are correct that no plan survives contact. However, most people will fight how they train. I know it sounds cliche but, it's true. I have seen this idea validated not only in the martial arts but in intense close combat in the military as well. Combat is no place to discover that you have prepared/trained yourself poorly because of stupid/naive assumptions about what you might face and your ability to be "aware".
Nimravus... Randori exercises are not MMA sparring/competition, regardless of how poorly some people translate the japanese to english or interpret what they think they saw or experienced.
No, it's not. The only thing I'm afraid of is being kicked out of the dojo due to having seriously injured someone who decided to up the ante without a warning, no matter how much that person may deserve it.
So what? I trust you're not implying that all MMA people spar the same way all the time??
What are you talking about?
Are you concerned about having to wipe out someone you're training with to protect yourself? If so, train somewhere else. You're in danger.
Or, are you concerned that you have so little control and skill that you will injure your training partner if he does something unscripted? If so, stop training, you are a danger to yourself and others.
Or, are you concerned that you will not be allowed to train if you have to use your training to protect yourself outside the dojo? If so, train somewhere else, your instructor is an idiot.
Maybe not. However, in my experience, MMA people tend to prepare for their anticipated competitive environment and stick to principles that work for that situation. Randori is not confined by those rules. Yes it is a controlled situation but is controlled more in terms of speed and degree of response than by technique or rules restrictions. It's easier to increase speed in a real situation than it is to change conditioned response.
No, the problem is quite the opposite. I, unlike many around my parts, have the guts to train with people from other dojos regularly - this occasionally means I have to be a little more decisive than usually, such as when I had to heelhook a guy to make him settle down last february. Funny thing was, he offered me a handshake afterwards too.
If that was the case, I would hardly have confidence enough to spar at all. Look around for the thread about sparring in the Bujinkan I created. Still, the best safety regulation in sparring is trust among the participants. For me to spar, I want either that, or rules.
Not as long as I don't tell the guy I have to beat up where I train, I guess.:asian:
However, Ben never said anything about "MMA type sparring" specifically, he only wrote "sparring", period.
Partially true. By making the UFC and MMA a part of the title, the implication (intended or otherwise) is that we are discussing MMA sparring. Additionally, you asked me if I thought MMA people sparred the same way all the time. My direct response was to your direct question.
I can settle for that.
I agree with this! While all MMA people may/may not train the same, their main goal in fighting in the ring and under the preset conditions for that event. Dealing with mult. attackers, weapons, etc., is IMO not something that I picture a MMA fighter training for on a regular basis. While I don't train in BBT, I'd think that the goals of those students would be more around realistic SD and not ring fighting.
Just my .02
Let's try to clear out what distinguishes "randori" from "sparring" then, aiight?
Thats a good idea, often they seem very similar, but... not.
I thought I did that.
From Wikipedia (I've made a specific sentence BOLD and red):
***Randori (乱取り is a term used in Japanese martial arts to describe free-style practice or sparring, sometimes with multiple attackers. The term literally means "chaos taking".
The exact meaning of randori depends on the martial art it is used in. In Judo and Tomiki Aikido, it most often refers to one-on-one sparring where partners attempt to resist and counter each other's techniques. In other styles of Aikido, in particular Aikikai, it refers to a form of practice in which a designated aikidoka defends against multiple attackers in quick succession without knowing how they will attack or in what order. This form of randori is not sparring, and the attackers are not allowed to resist or attempt to counter the defender's techniques. It must be noted that the term is used only by Aikikai dojos outside Japan. In Japan, this form of practice is called Taninzu-gake(多人数掛け which literally means multiple attackers.
Although in karate usually the word kumite is used for sparring, in some schools they also use the term randori for the "mock-combat" in which both karatekas move very fast, attempting and parrying acts of extreme violence with all four limbs (including knees, elbows, etc.) and yet never making other than the lightest contact. Total control of the body is necessary and therefore usually only the senior grades can practise randori.
Randori may be contrasted with kata, as two potentially complementary types of training.
Randori is a way in which one person may test his ability to fend off various opponents at a time.***
You have avoided my question. We're discussing MMA and Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu here.
Um... no, I haven't avoided your question. In fact, I answered it before you asked it. You neglected to read and comprehend it.
Once more for posterity and clarification...
In my experience, MMA enthusiasts spar to build the skills they anticipate needing in the ring. Those skills are focused by the existance of rules... Because it is senseless to train to avoid something that won't happen becuase there is a referee, with rulebook in hand to call foul and stop the action if/when it does.
With Taijutsu on the other hand, our training methods are not predicated on existing rules. The opposite, in fact is true. We assume that if things come to a physical confrontation that requires the use of taijutsu, things have degenerated to a degree that we should assume that anything is possible and that all bets are off. Therefore, we train not to condition specific responses to specific stimulii in terms of set technique vs set technique. As a result, we tend to use the sort of randori that has no limitations on what technique we can use but we do regulate to what extent a technique can be performed (like stopping short of actually breaking a shoulder with onikudaki) and how fast things happen. The speed thing is important in that working at a somewhat reduced pace the exercise tends not to generate into a flailing contest devoid of good taijutsu technique.
Hence my comments about the ease of changing speed vs changing conditioned response... before the question about definitions.
Again, no objections, BUT - Ben wrote "sparring", not any particular type of such. And yes, I do think the above mentioned methods reportedly used by Nakadai can be said to be a type of sparring. All training is about being aware of it's limitations.
Besides, if we truly were to train the way we fight all of us would have been dead by now.
You can't have it both ways. Either we are talking MMA sparring vs Taijutsu randori or we are not. You agreed before that because of the title and the implications in the post thus far that we were comparing MMA and Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. So... how is it going to be.
This is what I love about the internet. One can post perfectly clear and concise comments with very few possible interpretations and, yet, there is an infinite variety of ways to mis-interpret, mis-read, not read, not comprehend, and generally obfuscate said comments.
And, we don't train how we fight. We fight how we train.123
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