MMA "Fouls"

Discussion in 'MMA' started by TMA17, Aug 2, 2018.

  1. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    Quite a few.

    Association of Boxing Commissions and adhered to by the Unified Rules of Mixed Martial Arts.
    • Holding onto the cage fencing
    • Holding opponent’s clothing or gloves
    • Headbutts
    • Biting or spitting
    • Hair pulling
    • Intentionally placing a finger into any orifice, or into any cut or laceration of an opponent
    • Eye gouging of any kind
    • Groin attacks of any kind
    • Downward elbow strikes
    • Small joint manipulation (bending fingers backwards for example)
    • Strikes to the spine or back of the head
    • Heel kicks to the kidney
    • Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
    • Clawing, pinching, twisting the flesh or grabbing the clavicle (collar bone)
    • Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
    • Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
    • Stomping on a grounded fighter
    • The use of abusive language in fighting area
    • Any unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to opponent
    • Attacking an opponent during a break
    • Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee
    • Timidity (avoiding contact, consistent dropping of mouthpiece, or faking an injury)
    • Interference from a fighter's cornerman
    • Throwing an opponent out of the ring or caged area
    • Flagrant disregard of the referee’s instructions
    • Pinning an opponent to the floor on his or her head or neck
    • Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the round

     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  2. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Did you think there weren't any rules? MMA is a sport and the rules are there for the safety of the fighters, why wouldn't they be?
     
  3. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    No, of course I knew there were rules. I've just never seen them listed like this. These are things one would have to keep in mind in a street fight.
     
  4. Rat

    Rat Blue Belt

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    #BringBackPride :p
     
  5. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I think they should repeal the throwing the opponent out of the cage. If you can pull that off, on a conscious opponent anyway, you deserve the win. Just saying.

    No no purple nurples, Indian burns, or smurf bites? Well, good thing I never got into the cage. The rules are obviously stacked against me.
     
  6. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Is that where you grab a wrist (or similar) with both hands and twist in opposite directions?
     
  7. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Yup.
     
  8. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Grandmaster

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    It's important to note that these are just the current iteration of the most commonly followed rules in the U.S.. There are promotions in other countries which use different rules and there have been many different versions of the rules in the past. Most of the "fouls" listed above have been allowed at one time or another and some of them are still allowed in different promotions.

    In addition, while some of the fouls are effective techniques which have been used when the rules allowed it (and sometimes when the rules didn't allow it), my observation is that banning them hasn't done that much to change the overall structure of what works in an MMA match.
     
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  9. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Those are called Chinese burns here.
     
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  10. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Well yes but Mma isn't a street fight it's a sport so it has rules....
     
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  11. wab25

    wab25 Blue Belt

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    I question that banning them hasn't changed the overall structure. Or rather, I think that allowing some of them would change the structure. I am hoping that those with more experience than I, in MMA, can answer this for me.

    As I understand it, when MMA started, and some of these things were legal... the fighters did not have the skills to put themselves into a position to use them effectively. I think that now, that the fighter skill has gone up, some of these might actually change things... as the fighters now have an opportunity to apply them effectively. Here are some examples:

    Currently, a vertical elbow (12 to 6) is illegal, as are strikes to the spine. We also see fighters trying for wrestling take downs, where the other guy pressed up against the fence trying to defend a double or single leg take down. If the guy defending, were to use a vertical elbow, to strike the vertebrae with the point of the elbow, while defending the take down, would that be effective? My thinking here, is during the early days, when this was legal, people didn't know how to defend the take down and would end up taken down, before they could ever attempt such a thing. But, now, they can defend the take down for quite a while sometimes, where the other guys back and spine is fairly accessible to an elbow strike. Would receiving one or more vertical elbows, to the vertebrae, stop a take down attempt? Would it cause this style of take downs to be used less, in favor of take downs where the back is not so exposed? (more Judo style throws and foot sweeps)

    The other example would be eye gouging. This has always been illegal. In the early years of MMA, the TMA guys were ridiculed about their deadly eye gouge techniques. However, we have seen now that accidental eye pokes have had such an effect, that they just changed the rules about it. Just looking a the effect that the accidental eye pokes sometimes have... leads me to think that if they were legal, they would be used more and could change the outcome of matches very suddenly. (we would also have a lot of fighters that couldn't see as well... )

    I am not advocating making these things legal, as we do need to consider fighter safety. But, I have wondered about how these things would change fights. At this point, I think they would change how the fights progressed.. But, I would like to hear the opinions of the folks here that have much more MMA experience than I. (that really doesn't take too much ;) )

    Thanks in advance. (And hopefully this comes across as me looking to learn and possibly adjust my way of thinking and not so much as me trying to start an argument.)
     
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  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    The short answer is people just get hurt more.
     
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  13. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    To put it simply I have no interest in watching guys gouge each other's eyes or kick each other in the groin. Elbows to the spine can cripple someone, eye gouges can blind people I have no interest in seeing that happen in a sport that's already dangerous enough as it is
     
  14. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Why?
     
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  15. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Really?

    [​IMG]

    I'd watch "ow my balls", but I have no interest in watching mma...
     
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  16. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Grandmaster

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    Good questions. I'll address the examples you gave and a few more.

    Downward elbows to the spine: Coupled with good takedown defense, they can indeed inflict some real punishment against someone attacking with a sloppy (head down) wrestling shot. It's possible that allowing these strikes might increase the use of other takedowns. I suspect the more likely change is that people would learn to be more disciplined about shooting in correctly. Either way, the most important aspect in play is good takedown defense. Without it, those downward elbows are mostly useless.

    Eye pokes and gouges: If these were allowed, you would absolutely see more fights ending as a result of them. However, the skills and delivery mechanisms for applying (and defending against) these eye attacks are the same skills and delivery mechanisms that work for applying and defending against jabs to the face and grappling head control. That's what I mean when I say the structure of what works hasn't changed.

    Other examples:

    Kicking the head of a downed opponent: This is an effective technique. However if you look at the promotions where the technique is allowed, the overall skillset in play looks like those where it is not allowed. The only difference is that you don't get fighters "working the rules" by leaving one hand grounded to prevent their opponent from kicking their head. I dislike that when I see it in the UFC, but fortunately it doesn't come up that often.

    Hair pulling: If this were allowed again (as it used to be), fighters would all shave their heads or cut their hair really short. Most of them do this anyway.

    Grabbing clothing: With the current dress code, banning this doesn't do anything but avoid inadvertent x-rated wardrobe malfunctions. If fighters wore substantial clothing (as in Kudo competition), then there would be some additional skill sets coming into play. It wouldn't negate the existing skillsets, but would add to them.

    Head butts: These can be effective and would lead to some knockouts if allowed. However the proper head positioning for using/defending against head butts is pretty much the same positioning that you want for good wrestling anyway, so allowing them wouldn't much alter the structure of how the fighters operate.

    Hope that clarifies my point.
     
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  17. wab25

    wab25 Blue Belt

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    I agree with you. I am not hoping they change the sport... it is dangerous enough. (however America's Funniest Videos has shown that guys taking groin shots can be highly entertaining...)

    In another thread here, I located and posted the statistics about take downs in MMA. Those numbers showed that successful double leg take downs far out numbered all other forms of take downs... including the Judo style throws. Double leg take downs were huge, single leg take downs were respectable... every other type of take down, had very small numbers.

    Many years ago, people were taught that karate style blocks would break the attackers arm and that a back fist punch would break the skull. Now, 1000s of full contact blocks and back fist punches later we see that those ideas were not exactly correct. While effective, these techniques are on par with other blocking and striking techniques in terms of how fight ending they could be.

    My question is, are elbows to the spine effective enough at crippling, or injuring the other guy, to change the distribution of successful take downs? Would this bring the number Judo throws and other trips up to where the wrestling take downs are? Would they out number the wrestling take downs?

    Are these rules, adjusting which techniques are currently viewed as "the most successful?"

    (reading Tony's response now...)
     
  18. wab25

    wab25 Blue Belt

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    Thanks for the great break down Tony. Those are great points, especially now that I understand better what you meant by the "structure of what works." I agree with most of what you said there... I am processing the rest. Definitely seeing a few things in a new light.
     
  19. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    The long answer.
     
  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    You need your hips to throw really good downward elbows. Which are being grabbed when they are going for a takedown.

    There would be some turtle positions that downward elbows would suck with though.

    So If I strarted jumping on a guys from here. Down elbows, soccer kicks and such. That would be bad news.


    But to get there you messed up a long time ago.

    Otherwise. This is why MMA takedowns by MMA guys work. And Zombie tackles by that guy in the demo gets stuffed by downward elbows.


     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018

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