Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[drop bear]

So this is like your quotes, teacher says, so must be true, but teacher is talking horse dooey, you have no fights, you have just been listening to teacher, and the big boys talk, all that talk about demanding proof, and you have no evidence of your progression, the so say evidence of proof you demand from others, go figure

You really didn't understand the whole parts of a picture thing.

Find a teacher who has done the thing he is training you to do.

Try the things the teacher tells you and see if they work.

Look around the room and see if they work for other people and to what degree.

Use that information to make an assessment of your own development. Test and retest that.

I mean this is what I have said about sparring. There is a difference between it works in sparring and it works in sparring against a guy who has won 27 pro fights.

And where did I set the bar?

Because it wasn't win professional fights.

I said prove what you do is real. And you still haven't done that.

This is the most amazing thing about this conversation is my performance is so low to what it could conceivably be. There are a couple of jits comps, a mma which I lost and some hard sparring with some quality guys. A heap of pub fights. But we will leave that out for now as it will all be anecdotal.

And yet is still so far above the average expectation that it is considered unobtainable.

And I am 45. It is not even that people can use old man excuse.

 

[drop bear]

And in my defense of my MMA loss it was my first fight and i fought this guy.

About Us -

And he had cut weight to get to 90kg. And i rolled up at 90 walking around on 10 days notice because i was told he was a twelve week program guy who just needed someone for his fight.

And it was the only time I got uppercuted airborne.

 

[Gweilo]

sparring and it works in sparring against a guy who has won 27 pro fights

But you have not, this is the statement, you have jumped on, when other forum members have said exactly what you just posted, yes it may have worked for your teacher, but clearly you are not him, you talk about results based training, providing proof that training actually works, practice what you preach, in the little conversation we have had tonight, you have revealed more about you than you have before, a little pressure, and the real you emerges, we have never met, by tonights conversation, I know how to beat you, we have never met, never sparred, but I know you fold under pressure, its not you really talking, its a version of whatvyou want to be, a version of how you want to be perseveed, which is not you, you talk the talk, but deep down, you do not beleive in yourself, you do not beleive you are worth it, you wish you were. You train because you wantvto be the ego inside, but until you deal with your short comings, you will never get there, you are a dreamer, and not a do'er, this has been revealed in your answers, you dont respond well to pressure, good day dreamer

 

[Gweilo]

The following is like the scene in kindergarten cop, with the girl that is told to behave, and keeps on saying the same things over and over, only getting quieter every time, until it becomes a mumble.

 

[drop bear]

The following is like the scene in kindergarten cop, with the girl that is told to behave, and keeps on saying the same things over and over, only getting quieter every time, until it becomes a mumble.

Yeah pretty much.

"Show your system is real"

"YOU ARE NOT A PRO FIGHTER!"

"Show your system is real"

"YOU HAVE NEVER FOUGHT GOD AND WON!"

"Show your system is real"

"BUT..........YOU ARE MEAN.......and.....and .........sorry I can't"

 

[drop bear]

But you have not, this is the statement, you have jumped on, when other forum members have said exactly what you just posted, yes it may have worked for your teacher, but clearly you are not him, you talk about results based training, providing proof that training actually works, practice what you preach, in the little conversation we have had tonight, you have revealed more about you than you have before, a little pressure, and the real you emerges, we have never met, by tonights conversation, I know how to beat you, we have never met, never sparred, but I know you fold under pressure, its not you really talking, its a version of whatvyou want to be, a version of how you want to be perseveed, which is not you, you talk the talk, but deep down, you do not beleive in yourself, you do not beleive you are worth it, you wish you were. You train because you wantvto be the ego inside, but until you deal with your short comings, you will never get there, you are a dreamer, and not a do'er, this has been revealed in your answers, you dont respond well to pressure, good day dreamer

Thanks Dr Phil.

Good chat.

It really doesn't take much for you to create a whole fantasy that makes you the hero. Does it?

 

[skribs]

Ok. But then we are all happy with the term self defense enough to say we can do that or teach that?

Because the training isn't anything near the same.

Did you miss the left turn at Albuquerque?

You're saying that a plane is a plane, and a pilot is a pilot. But you're getting upset with people who call themselves pilots, but aren't qualified to fly a military fighter jet into battle. If we're going with this analogy, then you would either have every crop-duster be trained to the level of a military fighter jet pilot, or you would have everyone capable of flying a crop-duster be automatically qualified for those jets. You've set a binary benchmark for a skill where there's a big gap between unqualified and expert.

Regarding your professional fight record, doesn't that make you a hypocrite that you don't have a professional record? You have all of these opinions about what works and what doesn't, you have all of these opinions on how stuff is tested or not. You're even giving other people crap about not having pro fights themselves. And yet you don't. You've set such a high standard for everyone else, that you don't even meet yourself. By your own logic, you're not qualified to give opinions on the subject.

I think you need to adjust your attitude to something that lines up more with your expectations of others. Because if I hold you to your own standards, I should assume you know nothing.

 

[drop bear]

Did you miss the left turn at Albuquerque?

You're saying that a plane is a plane, and a pilot is a pilot. But you're getting upset with people who call themselves pilots, but aren't qualified to fly a military fighter jet into battle. If we're going with this analogy, then you would either have every crop-duster be trained to the level of a military fighter jet pilot, or you would have everyone capable of flying a crop-duster be automatically qualified for those jets. You've set a binary benchmark for a skill where there's a big gap between unqualified and expert.

Regarding your professional fight record, doesn't that make you a hypocrite that you don't have a professional record? You have all of these opinions about what works and what doesn't, you have all of these opinions on how stuff is tested or not. You're even giving other people crap about not having pro fights themselves. And yet you don't. You've set such a high standard for everyone else, that you don't even meet yourself. By your own logic, you're not qualified to give opinions on the subject.

I think you need to adjust your attitude to something that lines up more with your expectations of others. Because if I hold you to your own standards, I should assume you know nothing.

Ok. You are confusing fantasy and reality again.

People who are pilots are different to people who are self defense instructors

A pilot is someone who flies a plane. It is a real definable thing. And from there we can find out what plane the pilot flies and Mabye even how good he is.

A self defense instructor isn't someone who makes people better at self defense. We can't know what self defense he instructs. If it works. Of he can defend himself. We effectively know nothing. It is an indefinable thing.

If you can't fly a plane you pretty much can't be a pilot. If you can't defend yourself you can be a self defense instructor.

Real thing vs fantasy thing.

You could make self defense a real thing with real results. You could legitimately say if you can't do something self defense related you can't be an instructor. But you choose not to. You just avoid this little complication with a whole bunch of mental backflipping.

I haven't given anyone crap for not having pro fights. That is your fantasy.

I have given people crap for not being in a definable accountable system. When I gave you crap for standing arm bars for example. It wasn't that you couldn't do them in a pro fight. It was that you couldn't do them anywhere anyone could verify.

There was a literal gaping black hole where being able to do a standing arm bar should have existed.

So if we ever get to the point in which we have discussions where people can Mabye do a thing at all. Like in a way anyone can actually see. Then I might raise the idea of a pro fight.

Mabye you are getting confused with me constantly referencing experts to support my opinion. So I might say. Do a technique like this and it is also the opinion of a pro fighter. And I will show that as well.

This is generally called a source and is designed to support an case. the insane argument that using experts damages a point is something you have invented and it basically doesn't count.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. Your "nuance" comment is wrong then.

If you can fly a twin engine plane you can fly a plane. If you have done training in that plane you should be able to fly that plane or the training isn't very good.

In other words they are useful.

If you are training to fight against average folks. Then you should be able to do that and there is no nuance there either.

Unless like self defense you train to fly an undefined plane and an undefined folk and wind up with no idea what you have actually been trained to do. And have to use "nuance" sarcastically.

That's a characterization you bring up often about SD training. You continue to suggest that's my approach, even after being told my personal view is that folks should test their skills both within the school and outside it. They should get out and fly the plane.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And this is incorrect. A plane has a minimum standard so it will probably not blow up or fall out of the air. Pilot training has a minimum standard so pilots don't just crash the thing.

Martial arts has no minimum standard. If we trained pilots to the standard of martial artists. Then crap would not even be in debate.

Planes don't fly because they are planes. There is a lot of back of house that actually makes planes fly.

And this seems to be the argument. Planes fly. So if I build a plane it will fly.

John Jones throws oblique kicks. I throw oblique kicks therefore nuance.

You're dodging the point you made against yourself. And throwing out odd statements apparently ascribing attitudes to me. You do both of those things rather often.

 

[skribs]

Ok. You are confusing fantasy and reality again.

People who are pilots are different to people who are self defense instructors

A pilot is someone who flies a plane. It is a real definable thing. And from there we can find out what plane the pilot flies and Mabye even how good he is.

A self defense instructor isn't someone who makes people better at self defense. We can't know what self defense he instructs. If it works. Of he can defend himself. We effectively know nothing. It is an indefinable thing.

If you can't fly a plane you pretty much can't be a pilot. If you can't defend yourself you can be a self defense instructor.

Real thing vs fantasy thing.

You could make self defense a real thing with real results. You could legitimately say if you can't do something self defense related you can't be an instructor. But you choose not to. You just avoid this little complication with a whole bunch of mental backflipping.

I haven't given anyone crap for not having pro fights. That is your fantasy.

I have given people crap for not being in a definable accountable system. When I gave you crap for standing arm bars for example. It wasn't that you couldn't do them in a pro fight. It was that you couldn't do them anywhere anyone could verify.

There was a literal gaping black hole where being able to do a standing arm bar should have existed.

So if we ever get to the point in which we have discussions where people can Mabye do a thing at all. Like in a way anyone can actually see. Then I might raise the idea of a pro fight.

Mabye you are getting confused with me constantly referencing experts to support my opinion. So I might say. Do a technique like this and it is also the opinion of a pro fighter. And I will show that as well.

This is generally called a source and is designed to support an case. the insane argument that using experts damages a point is something you have invented and it basically doesn't count.

What is a plane? People qualified to teach you to fly a Cessna aren't qualified to teach you to fly a fighter jet.

And please stop reminding me how bitter you are that you're too stupid to understand how to break someone's arm from any other position than from the ground. It doesn't help your point when you constantly remind me that you can't understand simple concepts.

I'm done beating around the bush with you. This is how I see you. Someone too dense to even understand simple martial arts concepts that my 6 year old students understand.

 

[drop bear]

That's a characterization you bring up often about SD training. You continue to suggest that's my approach, even after being told my personal view is that folks should test their skills both within the school and outside it. They should get out and fly the plane.

You are still being very vague about what you consider testing of skills.

Which flows on to your flying a plane.

These statements can mean literally anything.

Nuance isn't a constantly shifting goalpost.

 

[drop bear]

What is a plane? People qualified to teach you to fly a Cessna aren't qualified to teach you to fly a fighter jet.

And please stop reminding me how bitter you are that you're too stupid to understand how to break someone's arm from any other position than from the ground. It doesn't help your point when you constantly remind me that you can't understand simple concepts.

I'm done beating around the bush with you. This is how I see you. Someone too dense to even understand simple martial arts concepts that my 6 year old students understand.

I have honestly no idea what qualifies you to do what when you learn to fly a plane. I assume unlike self defense if you can't fly a plane they probably don't let you teach others to fly one.

Sorry I didn't realise you meant arm bars work on a six year olds arm.

I mean that makes more sense.

It is these points of context that make understanding easier.

 

[Gweilo]

It really doesn't take much for you to create a whole fantasy that makes you the hero. Does it?

I was thinking about this, and our conversation earlier, whilst I was curling one down, there is only one fantasy here, and its your opinion of your superior training against everyone elses, yes you are probably fit, strong and have good cardio, maybe you are good in a sd senario, I doubt it though, because in your opinion, it cannot work, as you have no proof, apart from my instructor says so, something YOU CALLED, a waste of training time. You have also demonstrated you do not react well when under pressure, which will hinder your reaction, you have no authority in your field, you have no fight record, you have no proof according to your criteria, in previous conversations, so either your in a silver brumby dooey fantasy, or you dont really know or fully understand what you are doing in your training.
Cows butts, banjo's and arm locks.

 

[jobo]

Ok. You are confusing fantasy and reality again.

People who are pilots are different to people who are self defense instructors

A pilot is someone who flies a plane. It is a real definable thing. And from there we can find out what plane the pilot flies and Mabye even how good he is.

A self defense instructor isn't someone who makes people better at self defense. We can't know what self defense he instructs. If it works. Of he can defend himself. We effectively know nothing. It is an indefinable thing.

If you can't fly a plane you pretty much can't be a pilot. If you can't defend yourself you can be a self defense instructor.

Real thing vs fantasy thing.

You could make self defense a real thing with real results. You could legitimately say if you can't do something self defense related you can't be an instructor. But you choose not to. You just avoid this little complication with a whole bunch of mental backflipping.

I haven't given anyone crap for not having pro fights. That is your fantasy.

I have given people crap for not being in a definable accountable system. When I gave you crap for standing arm bars for example. It wasn't that you couldn't do them in a pro fight. It was that you couldn't do them anywhere anyone could verify.

There was a literal gaping black hole where being able to do a standing arm bar should have existed.

So if we ever get to the point in which we have discussions where people can Mabye do a thing at all. Like in a way anyone can actually see. Then I might raise the idea of a pro fight.

Mabye you are getting confused with me constantly referencing experts to support my opinion. So I might say. Do a technique like this and it is also the opinion of a pro fighter. And I will show that as well.

This is generally called a source and is designed to support an case. the insane argument that using experts damages a point is something you have invented and it basically doesn't count.

its just your straw man again

the mechanics of making someone '' better '' at fighting and thus better able to defend themselves are simple and much understood and almost certainly a part of most SD programs

teach them to punch, teach them to not get punched, teach them to use size and strength of their opponent against them

theres no requirement for the instructor to have been a life long serial brawler for him to understand and teach those things

i do some time teaching ''street kids'' to box, it consists mainly of saying move your feet, keep you guard up, some of the 20 yo would undoutably beat me up in a fight, their just to fast, that doesn't mean i cant teach them to be better at it

if what you have in mind are classes they totally neglect teaching basic skills for fancy magic movements, then im in agreement with you, but thats not the case your making where all self defence training is ''bad''

 

[dvcochran]

Ok. You are confusing fantasy and reality again.

People who are pilots are different to people who are self defense instructors

A pilot is someone who flies a plane. It is a real definable thing. And from there we can find out what plane the pilot flies and Mabye even how good he is.

A self defense instructor isn't someone who makes people better at self defense. We can't know what self defense he instructs. If it works. Of he can defend himself. We effectively know nothing. It is an indefinable thing.

If you can't fly a plane you pretty much can't be a pilot. If you can't defend yourself you can be a self defense instructor.

Real thing vs fantasy thing.

You could make self defense a real thing with real results. You could legitimately say if you can't do something self defense related you can't be an instructor. But you choose not to. You just avoid this little complication with a whole bunch of mental backflipping.

I haven't given anyone crap for not having pro fights. That is your fantasy.

I have given people crap for not being in a definable accountable system. When I gave you crap for standing arm bars for example. It wasn't that you couldn't do them in a pro fight. It was that you couldn't do them anywhere anyone could verify.

There was a literal gaping black hole where being able to do a standing arm bar should have existed.

So if we ever get to the point in which we have discussions where people can Mabye do a thing at all. Like in a way anyone can actually see. Then I might raise the idea of a pro fight.

Mabye you are getting confused with me constantly referencing experts to support my opinion. So I might say. Do a technique like this and it is also the opinion of a pro fighter. And I will show that as well.

This is generally called a source and is designed to support an case. the insane argument that using experts damages a point is something you have invented and it basically doesn't count.

At some point you have to agree most of this debate is based on terminology. Both you and skribs explain the fact that the job of 'pilot' is a general definition that need specific explanation when certain skills are required for the job. That same is absolutely true in MA's. There are instructors/styles in the general sense and some who deal in specific skills.
This is where your 'black and white' argument falls apart. I will argue you are very narrowminded because you have been conditioned by your MA environment that there is only one method of proof. Most everyone else is arguing that this is not correct.

We are way past the point to agree to disagree IMHO.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are still being very vague about what you consider testing of skills.

Which flows on to your flying a plane.

These statements can mean literally anything.

Nuance isn't a constantly shifting goalpost.

I don't think I've been all that vague. Spar with people. There's a wide range of activities that fit in that description, and all of them are useful to varying degrees and for varying purposes.

 

[skribs]

Sorry I didn't realise you meant arm bars work on a six year olds arm.

No. I meant we teach these techniques to 6 year olds and they're able to figure it out. The fact you can't figure it out tells me the six-year-olds are smarter than you.

You keep bringing it up like it's this big embarrassment of mine. But you're too stupid to realize that the embarrassment is yours. You're like a flat-earther who keeps reminding someone that they said the earth is round. You're like an anti-vaxxer who keeps reminding people they said vaccines don't cause autism. Every time you bring up standing armbars, you remind me of how you're too dense to understand what is considered a simple concept that we teach to our beginner belts. You remind me of me trying to explain simple concepts to you that a six-year-old can understand, and your failure to understand them.

You think it's this golden button that says "you said 'standing armbar' once, therefore I am smarter." And that's what makes it even more pathetic. Because every time I see this, I'm thinking that we teach our 6-year-olds this. We teach our yellow belts this. Thus, I must assume you have the knowledge and intelligence of a 5-year-old white belt. And that's giving you the benefit of the doubt, since all I know is it's less than a 6-year-old yellow belt.

Now, if you were nice about it, I'd just pity you and move on. But you're a total *** to everyone who doesn't bow before your "superior" knowledge. Yet, this "superior" knowledge is not even that of a 6-year-old. Every time you bring up the standing armbar, I know that I've won the argument for 2 reasons:

1. You had to resort to an old fight instead of providing evidence in this one
2. You still are dumber than a 6-year-old that you can't even figure out how to make a standing armbar work

So go ahead. Keep bringing it up. Keep reminding me that my 6-year-old students are smarter than you. Keep reminding me that my yellow belts know things that you can't even comprehend. Keep reminding of your failure to understand a simple technique. Keep thumping your chest about how great you are. It's just a reminder of how simple-minded you are.

I'm done trying to use logic with you. I'm done trying to debate you. I'm done trying to explain things to you. Because you can't even understand something so simple I can teach it to a 6-year-old. This is how I see you every time you bring up the standing armbar.

 

[skribs]

We are way past the point to agree to disagree IMHO.

If his attitude were different, I'd be okay with him. But since he's decided he's the arbiter of all martial arts...I agree with you.

 

[Gweilo]

@drop bear I found one of your training videos.