Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[Gweilo]

The discussion of static technique v adapability has been going for years.

 

[Gweilo]

Adaptability is the single most important trait a fighter can have. It is more important than power, speed, timing, balance, coordination, grace, fortitude, conditioning, aggressiveness, agility, precision, endurance, body feel, posture or form. To instantly respond to your adversary’s every move, the conditions and the fight environment requires a flexible mind and a martial art suited to modification.
The only flaw in the above sentance, adaptability is more important, but you cannot attain adaptability until you have attained the others.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I assume you think you just write nuance and that therefore makes you correct.

Which is exactly what nuance in quotation marks mean.

I am using it non sarcastically.

Actually putting a word in quotes is formally correct in that usage. You're just interpreting it the way you want to, to continue arguing a point by ignoring a point. Which means you've run out of attempts in that area and are trying to shift to a different argument.

Which I guess means we're done?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was thinking along the lines of Steve here. But are you saying that if I can fly a crap easy to fly plane but not a super hard one I can still fly a plane?

And so therefore if I do a crap easy to progress self defense and not a super hard one. I am still doing self defense?

Okay, so you've just made a point I've asserted several times with you: if something isn't (in your eyes) the best, it's crap. Twin-engine planes get a lot of use, including still in daily commuter runs. In other words, they're useful. So is being able to fight against average folks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I thought we were still on testing pieces to make a whole.

I'm not sure I've said anything about that in this thread.

 

[jobo]

Adaptability is the single most important trait a fighter can have. It is more important than power, speed, timing, balance, coordination, grace, fortitude, conditioning, aggressiveness, agility, precision, endurance, body feel, posture or form. To instantly respond to your adversary’s every move, the conditions and the fight environment requires a flexible mind and a martial art suited to modification.
The only flaw in the above sentance, adaptability is more important, but you cannot attain adaptability until you have attained the others.

well yes agree, it has its place, i doubt its the most important, as with out speed, power agility etal, its useless,

personalty if i had to choose, and i suppose i have done to some extent, id go for power speed and,agility as then what my opponent is doing is largely irrelevant, im in the iron mike camp for fight strategy

 

[jobo]

In this analogy, one can learn to fly a twin engine plane and then actually pilot that plane. One can learn to fly a jet, and then actually pilot that jet. The two skill sets may be complimentary... or they may just seem similar superficially to a lay person.

This is actually a pretty good analogy, because it highlights how easy it is for a lay person to presume that similar skill sets are complimentary. In this analogy, your position is that flying a twin engine plane is in some way preparing you to pilot an F18. Further, the self defense application in this analogy would be someone advertising F18 lessons, but offering twin engine plane lessons, all the while muddying the waters with allusions to F18 skill as some kind of attainable goal, should the person just put in the time and effort to get there. When in fact, no one in that school will ever learn to fly a jet. Ever. And they may not even be able to fly a twin engine plane, because you never actually get within a mile of a runway.

f18 are largely self flying planes, that is they are so inherently unstable its only the computer that keeps them in the air, id suggest the skill set to actually fly on its relatively similar to a crop duster, actually fighting in one is of course some what different.

though the only thing that separates a modern fighter flyers and say a spitefire flyer in the 1940s, is 80 years, either could do the other ones job with a bit of practice, and spitfire flyers were getting straight out of crop dusters. its the freakish reactions and hand eye co ordintion that sets them apart rather than any training, oh and being suicide brave helps

 

[Gerry Seymour]

f18 are largely self flying planes, that is they are so inherently unstable its only the computer that keeps them in the air, id suggest the skill set to actually fly on its relatively similar to a crop duster, actually fighting in one is of course some what different.

though the only thing that separates a modern fighter flyers and say a spitefire flyer in the 1940s, is 80 years, either could do the other ones job with a bit of practice, and spitfire flyers were getting straight out of crop dusters. its the freakish reactions and hand eye co ordintion that sets them apart rather than any training, oh and being suicide brave helps

I suspect training plays a bit of a role. Trial-and-error in a warplane during active combat seems a bit chancy.

 

[jobo]

I suspect training plays a bit of a role. Trial-and-error in a warplane during active combat seems a bit chancy.

we were taking about flying them, not dog fights which is clearly a step up

simulators play a big part,as do dual controls, like say a self defence drill, they are a bit expensive for trial and error at any time, they are however just a very expensive video game flying planes is quite ridiculously easy, easier than riding a motor bike for instance, harder than driving a car, landing them can bit a bit trick, avoiding tall building is a good idea., i can see no reason beyond control familiarity why a fighter jet should be fundamental more difficult to get from point a to point b. the dam thing has auto controls for one thing

 

[Steve]

I think the salient point is that it's a different skill set, even though it may seem similar to a lay person.

Hey guys. Look. There's a forest over there where all the trees are.

 

[jobo]

I think the salient point is that it's a different skill set, even though it may seem similar to a lay person.

Hey guys. Look. There's a forest over there where all the trees are.

no its the same skill set, like running is an advanced version of walking. the forward motion whilst not falling over skill is the same

its the reason for that well known idiom,'' learning to walk before you can run''

 

[Gweilo]

well yes agree, it has its place, i doubt its the most important, as with out speed, power agility etal, its useless,

But if you cannot adapt to a random attack, then it does not matter how fast or strong you are, fortunately, adaptability is helped by continual movement, andcremaining calm.

 

[jobo]

But if you cannot adapt to a random attack, then it does not matter how fast or strong you are, fortunately, adaptability is helped by continual movement, andcremaining calm.

i would ''adapt'' to a random attack by unleashing everything i had onto them. which is much what i would do for an nonrandom attack, usually accompanied by screaming IL !!!!ing kill you , you &&&&, i dont do calm whilst attempting to beat someone to death

 

[drop bear]

Okay, so you've just made a point I've asserted several times with you: if something isn't (in your eyes) the best, it's crap. Twin-engine planes get a lot of use, including still in daily commuter runs. In other words, they're useful. So is being able to fight against average folks.

Ok. Your "nuance" comment is wrong then.

If you can fly a twin engine plane you can fly a plane. If you have done training in that plane you should be able to fly that plane or the training isn't very good.

In other words they are useful.

If you are training to fight against average folks. Then you should be able to do that and there is no nuance there either.

Unless like self defense you train to fly an undefined plane and an undefined folk and wind up with no idea what you have actually been trained to do. And have to use "nuance" sarcastically.

 

[drop bear]

Okay, so you've just made a point I've asserted several times with you: if something isn't (in your eyes) the best, it's crap.

And this is incorrect. A plane has a minimum standard so it will probably not blow up or fall out of the air. Pilot training has a minimum standard so pilots don't just crash the thing.

Martial arts has no minimum standard. If we trained pilots to the standard of martial artists. Then crap would not even be in debate.

Planes don't fly because they are planes. There is a lot of back of house that actually makes planes fly.

And this seems to be the argument. Planes fly. So if I build a plane it will fly.

John Jones throws oblique kicks. I throw oblique kicks therefore nuance.

 

[drop bear]

I think the salient point is that it's a different skill set, even though it may seem similar to a lay person.

Hey guys. Look. There's a forest over there where all the trees are.

Yeah. And we go back to that whole picture speach I made. Which is where I thought we were going in the first place

So at least it applied somewhere.

 

[Steve]

But if you cannot adapt to a random attack, then it does not matter how fast or strong you are, fortunately, adaptability is helped by continual movement, andcremaining calm.

if someone can't manage an expected attack outside of training, how could they possibly be expected to adapt to a random attack?

 

[drop bear]

The discussion of static technique v adapability has been going for years.

Honestly timing and performing technique in real time is almost self evident to people who actually apply technique.

 

[skribs]

And this is incorrect. A plane has a minimum standard so it will probably not blow up or fall out of the air. Pilot training has a minimum standard so pilots don't just crash the thing.

Martial arts has no minimum standard. If we trained pilots to the standard of martial artists. Then crap would not even be in debate.

Planes don't fly because they are planes. There is a lot of back of house that actually makes planes fly.

There are lots of planes that have a higher standard for operation than others. A lot of planes that have individual training requirements that others don't. Can anyone who's trained for a couple of hours on a Cessna fly a F-22 Raptor effectively? How about a Harrier? There is additional training requirements to be a commercial pilot than just to fly by yourself. There's additional training to do acrobatics than just to fly a plane. There's additional training to do solo flights than to fly under the guidance of an instructor.

If a plane is a plane, there's no difference between your average joe with a pilot's license, and the Red Baron.

 

[drop bear]

There are lots of planes that have a higher standard for operation than others. A lot of planes that have individual training requirements that others don't. Can anyone who's trained for a couple of hours on a Cessna fly a F-22 Raptor effectively? How about a Harrier? There is additional training requirements to be a commercial pilot than just to fly by yourself. There's additional training to do acrobatics than just to fly a plane. There's additional training to do solo flights than to fly under the guidance of an instructor.

If a plane is a plane, there's no difference between your average joe with a pilot's license, and the Red Baron.

Ok. But then we are all happy with the term self defense enough to say we can do that or teach that?

Because the training isn't anything near the same.