Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[Steve]

No. I meant we teach these techniques to 6 year olds and they're able to figure it out. The fact you can't figure it out tells me the six-year-olds are smarter than you.

You keep bringing it up like it's this big embarrassment of mine. But you're too stupid to realize that the embarrassment is yours. You're like a flat-earther who keeps reminding someone that they said the earth is round. You're like an anti-vaxxer who keeps reminding people they said vaccines don't cause autism. Every time you bring up standing armbars, you remind me of how you're too dense to understand what is considered a simple concept that we teach to our beginner belts. You remind me of me trying to explain simple concepts to you that a six-year-old can understand, and your failure to understand them.

You think it's this golden button that says "you said 'standing armbar' once, therefore I am smarter." And that's what makes it even more pathetic. Because every time I see this, I'm thinking that we teach our 6-year-olds this. We teach our yellow belts this. Thus, I must assume you have the knowledge and intelligence of a 5-year-old white belt. And that's giving you the benefit of the doubt, since all I know is it's less than a 6-year-old yellow belt.

Now, if you were nice about it, I'd just pity you and move on. But you're a total *** to everyone who doesn't bow before your "superior" knowledge. Yet, this "superior" knowledge is not even that of a 6-year-old. Every time you bring up the standing armbar, I know that I've won the argument for 2 reasons:

1. You had to resort to an old fight instead of providing evidence in this one
2. You still are dumber than a 6-year-old that you can't even figure out how to make a standing armbar work

So go ahead. Keep bringing it up. Keep reminding me that my 6-year-old students are smarter than you. Keep reminding me that my yellow belts know things that you can't even comprehend. Keep reminding of your failure to understand a simple technique. Keep thumping your chest about how great you are. It's just a reminder of how simple-minded you are.

I'm done trying to use logic with you. I'm done trying to debate you. I'm done trying to explain things to you. Because you can't even understand something so simple I can teach it to a 6-year-old. This is how I see you every time you bring up the standing armbar.

It's actually kind of funny that you think Drop Bear is the flat earther. He might be. But... and stay with me for just a second... what if you're the flat earther in this analogy? Not saying you are or are not... but I think it's worth considering.

 

[Gweilo]

It's actually kind of funny that you think Drop Bear is the flat earther. He might be. But... and stay with me for just a second... what if you're the flat earther in this analogy? Not saying you are or are not... but I think it's worth considering.

Here is the problem with DB arguement, most here have put a lot of time and effort into training, training that has been passed down for decades, if not centuries, techniques that have been forged and tweaked over time, in combat, and wars, yes he has a valid opinion, yes sometimes he has a very good point, but its the onipotent way its been put across, and the its mma way or no way, times change, everyone has to adapt throughout their ma journey, DB is very willing to tell others they have no nuance, no evidence of their skill set, then tells them, they have wasted their entire ma journey there training is fraud, or fantasy, because they cannot provide proof, and when asked for proof of his convictions, he cannot provide it. Practice what you preach.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Everyone, keep in mind that this is a friendly martial arts forum. You're free to argue with each other's points if you like, but don't attack the posters themselves. Thank you.

William H.
@Monkey Turned Wolf
MartialTalk Moderator

 

[skribs]

It's actually kind of funny that you think Drop Bear is the flat earther. He might be. But... and stay with me for just a second... what if you're the flat earther in this analogy? Not saying you are or are not... but I think it's worth considering.

I have considered it.

 

[Steve]

Here is the problem with DB arguement, most here have put a lot of time and effort into training, training that has been passed down for decades, if not centuries, techniques that have been forged and tweaked over time, in combat, and wars, yes he has a valid opinion, yes sometimes he has a very good point, but its the onipotent way its been put across, and the its mma way or no way, times change, everyone has to adapt throughout their ma journey, DB is very willing to tell others they have no nuance, no evidence of their skill set, then tells them, they have wasted their entire ma journey there training is fraud, or fantasy, because they cannot provide proof, and when asked for proof of his convictions, he cannot provide it. Practice what you preach.

Tradition is a fine reason to do something. Just speaking for myself here, I disagree that old=effective in martial arts. In fact, earlier in this thread, I tried to make very clear my opinion that it really only takes one generation for an effective art to become ineffective, if the instructor lacks practical experience. I won't rehash it again. Suffice to say, if you take pride in your style, and feel like it connects you to folks who came before, you, great. That's a wonderful reason to do it. I get the same kind of joy in several ways, including from cooking and baking.

But nothing you say above has much to do with whether a style is effective for self defense, or perhaps more importantly, whether a person is qualified to teach self defense strictly by virtue of being an expert in your style.

 

[Buka]

Everyone, keep in mind that this is a friendly martial arts forum. You're free to argue with each other's points if you like, but don't attack the posters themselves. Thank you.

William H.
@Monkey Turned Wolf
MartialTalk Moderator

Can we appoint somebody as Forum Whipping Boy and just attack them?
You know, like a Representative?

 

[Steve]

Can we appoint somebody as Forum Whipping Boy and just attack them?
You know, like a Representative?

I go ahead and volunteer.

 

[drop bear]

At some point you have to agree most of this debate is based on terminology. Both you and skribs explain the fact that the job of 'pilot' is a general definition that need specific explanation when certain skills are required for the job. That same is absolutely true in MA's. There are instructors/styles in the general sense and some who deal in specific skills.
This is where your 'black and white' argument falls apart. I will argue you are very narrowminded because you have been conditioned by your MA environment that there is only one method of proof. Most everyone else is arguing that this is not correct.

We are way past the point to agree to disagree IMHO.

Well it is not even the idea of black and white but fantasy and reality.

So there are instructors who deal in specific skills. Fine. So for those skills why do the instructors not feel the need to demonstrate they have those skills or can teach those skills.

It doesn't matter what the skills are. Or how specific those skills are there is a real tangible thing that occurs in the transfer of those skills.

And it is observable and measurable.

Yet in martial arts it for some reason it isn't. And that removes martial arts from learning things like flying planes.

Because flying planes is a real thing.

 

[drop bear]

Here is the problem with DB arguement, most here have put a lot of time and effort into training, training that has been passed down for decades, if not centuries, techniques that have been forged and tweaked over time, in combat, and wars, yes he has a valid opinion, yes sometimes he has a very good point, but its the onipotent way its been put across, and the its mma way or no way, times change, everyone has to adapt throughout their ma journey, DB is very willing to tell others they have no nuance, no evidence of their skill set, then tells them, they have wasted their entire ma journey there training is fraud, or fantasy, because they cannot provide proof, and when asked for proof of his convictions, he cannot provide it. Practice what you preach.

Yeah. And this is the issue in that I don't think cause and effect is negotiable in this discussion.

And you will find that if you test cause and effect it ignores the colourful back story that legitimizes the practice.

 

[skribs]

Well it is not even the idea of black and white but fantasy and reality.

...you do realize that's a black-and-white argument, right?

Because flying planes is a real thing.

Again, flying planes is not a black-and-white skill. There are many different skills and skill levels in flying a plane. There are different situations in which those skills apply. Yet, you're making it black-and-white as "fly or no fly."

 

[skribs]

Can we appoint somebody as Forum Whipping Boy and just attack them?
You know, like a Representative?

Based on some of the posts I've seen lately, it seems some people thought @gpseymour already volunteered for that role...

 

[drop bear]

its just your straw man again

the mechanics of making someone '' better '' at fighting and thus better able to defend themselves are simple and much understood and almost certainly a part of most SD programs

teach them to punch, teach them to not get punched, teach them to use size and strength of their opponent against them

theres no requirement for the instructor to have been a life long serial brawler for him to understand and teach those things

i do some time teaching ''street kids'' to box, it consists mainly of saying move your feet, keep you guard up, some of the 20 yo would undoutably beat me up in a fight, their just to fast, that doesn't mean i cant teach them to be better at it

if what you have in mind are classes they totally neglect teaching basic skills for fancy magic movements, then im in agreement with you, but thats not the case your making where all self defence training is ''bad''

Ok here are a couple ideas for you to play with.

Better is better.

So regardless how much you feel the need for training. Better training will work better and produce better results.

This is different to training to a person capability or their level of interest.

And the skills taught have to be real skills it is not fancy movements that is my problem. It is this insane idea of training movement that you can't tell if they do anything at all.

I keep saying this and it keeps getting missed. It works or it doesn't work.

So fancy movements is a good example. It is only a method of separation if you are operating off a story.

If a fancy movement works better than a simple one. I will do a fancy movement. But people make these weird distinctions and they don't necessarily apply.

 

[Steve]

Based on some of the posts I've seen lately, it seems some people thought @gpseymour already volunteered for that role...

By definition, a moderator holds all the cards. Gerry plays the victim well when he wants to, but since he holds all the cards, it's just not real.

 

[drop bear]

...you do realize that's a black-and-white argument, right?



Again, flying planes is not a black-and-white skill. There are many different skills and skill levels in flying a plane. There are different situations in which those skills apply. Yet, you're making it black-and-white as "fly or no fly."

No.

Ok we are back to nuance. There is a whole bunch of different real things. We could discuss the merits of different real things. But for self defense we really have to be discussing real things. Or the whole system breaks down.

So see how you made flying a plane not black and white? But flying a plane in all its variations is still a real thing.

Flying a cloud isn't a real thing and doesn't work in the discussion.

Now with martial arts we can add in flying a cloud because everyone refuses to separate fantasy from reality.

 

[Gweilo]

It is this insane idea of training movement that you can't tell if they do anything at all.

So you dont beleive in discuising movement?
Or do you mean something else?

 

[Gweilo]

Better is better.

Define better.

 

[Gweilo]

By definition, a moderator holds all the cards. Gerry plays the victim well when he wants to, but since he holds all the cards, it's just not real.

I think monkey turned wolf has a point, the regional or personal definition or perception of a technique/process is muddying the water.

Can we appoint somebody as Forum Whipping Boy and just attack them?
You know, like a Representative?

There is no need, Drop bear regularly does this, he has broad shoulders, and secretly he relishes it, in his mind he is playing call of duty or something.

 

[skribs]

No.

Ok we are back to nuance. There is a whole bunch of different real things. We could discuss the merits of different real things. But for self defense we really have to be discussing real things. Or the whole system breaks down.

So see how you made flying a plane not black and white? But flying a plane in all its variations is still a real thing.

Flying a cloud isn't a real thing and doesn't work in the discussion.

Now with martial arts we can add in flying a cloud because everyone refuses to separate fantasy from reality.

What you say here is correct. I have never seen you correctly apply this concept before, though.

The way conversations go with you, you seem to expect that all pilots be ace fighter pilots, or they're worthless. Even though you can fly in a commercial jet and succeed at what a commercial jet is designed for.

You seem to understand what nuance is. Now actually make nuanced judgments instead of drawing the line at an expert level...which you don't even meet.

 

[jobo]

Ok here are a couple ideas for you to play with.

Better is better.

So regardless how much you feel the need for training. Better training will work better and produce better results.

This is different to training to a person capability or their level of interest.

And the skills taught have to be real skills it is not fancy movements that is my problem. It is this insane idea of training movement that you can't tell if they do anything at all.

I keep saying this and it keeps getting missed. It works or it doesn't work.

So fancy movements is a good example. It is only a method of separation if you are operating off a story.

If a fancy movement works better than a simple one. I will do a fancy movement. But people make these weird distinctions and they don't necessarily apply.

i make what i believe to be salient points, repeatedly and you just ignored them and return to your script

lets try again,

your behaviour is odd, really really odd, middle aged men learning ma is a fringe behaviour, you take it to a whole new level of odd. but your telling people who actions is its self usual by the norms of society that they should do exactly the same as you and become even odder, because you said they should !

most people dont want to fight, they dont like fighting, they dont want to turn up at work with black eyes and they particularly dont like getting hurt. however most people would if they are attacked like to be in a position to put up a robust defence.

that of course is catch 22

people who wash up at self defence classes are themselves largely a self selecting population, they have identified themselves as weak and vulnerable, just by signing up, people who are capable and like to hit and get hit have all gone to the mma gym or at least have signed up for a competition art

so what is the instructor supposed to do with that, he has a class of vulnerable people who want to learn to ''fight'' with out actually getting hurt in the process.

if people start banging them they will leave, hell we get people at our club who wont even go on the floor even if you put them down gently or retire injured if you punch the focus pad they are holding to hard, and of course press ups are much to difficult for them

all you can do is look for value added. that they are better than when they arrived and they are, notably, even though unless they get a personality transplant they will never ever be able to fight by the standards you are holding as the minimum

 

[dvcochran]

Well it is not even the idea of black and white but fantasy and reality.

So there are instructors who deal in specific skills. Fine. So for those skills why do the instructors not feel the need to demonstrate they have those skills or can teach those skills.

It doesn't matter what the skills are. Or how specific those skills are there is a real tangible thing that occurs in the transfer of those skills.

And it is observable and measurable.

Yet in martial arts it for some reason it isn't. And that removes martial arts from learning things like flying planes.

Because flying planes is a real thing.

Man, you have to get your head out of blooper reels. Yes, we all agree there are bad teachers, in every style and in Everything.
We Always demonstrate skills. That is teaching 101 in every school/system I have ever been in, which is quite a lot. It is not an oral recitation. It is an integral part of every class. Period. There is NO school/style/system/person that goes full speed/full power every drill every class. Again, irrational on an epic level and reeks of your lack of understanding of real training.

I fully believe you go hard and that you are in a good program. But there is some outside noise you are buying into that is just incorrect. I hope you see the bigger picture at some point.