Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[jobo]

This opens up something else. People do those without FORMAL training. If you grow up in a desert, its part of your life living in it, same with if you are ina mountanious area etc. If anything people living there would think its a little funny if you seek out formal training for it. and that is where doing and learning by doing comes into the equation. As well as learning by exposure.

well youve put formal in big letters, whats formal exactly,

my dad trained me to ride a bike when i was 7 by running me up to top speed and letting go, where as i then travel 50 yards and crashed into the wall at the bottom, no one had mentioned brakes, when i picked myself up i noted that he had gone back inside to watch the rugby and hadnt stuck around long enough to see the crash, this did however work, though it was a somewhat painful experiences, at little more formality on the various skills required and slightly more than 5 seconds exsperiancial learning would have been much appreciated

 

[Deleted member 39746]

well youve put formal in big letters, whats formal exactly,

my dad trained me to ride a bike when i was 7 by running me up to top speed and letting go, where as i then travel 50 yards and crashed into the wall at the bottom, no one had mentioned brakes, when i picked myself up i noted that he had gone back inside to watch the rugby and hadnt stuck around long enough to see the crash, this did however work, though it was a somewhat painful experiences

A good question, it can mean many things to many people. I emphisised it as plenty of people dont consider your parents teaching you formal instruction. And then we have the break aways, like observational learning or trying to teach yourself to do somethign soley by yourself. (technically that is observational for 95% of circumstances as you see something and try to teach yourself to do it)

Just a example for former, your parents teaching you can be literally just show you how and thats it. There isnt a standard really.

 

[Gweilo]

This opens up something else. People do those without FORMAL training. If you grow up in a desert, its part of your life living in it, same with if you are ina mountanious area etc. If anything people living there would think its a little funny if you seek out formal training for it. and that is where doing and learning by doing comes into the equation. As well as learning by exposure.

So these people who live in desserts and mountains, they just know how to survive?
Dont you think they may have been shown how to survive by their parents/community, shown in this case being another word for trained, in the skills passed on by their ancestors, or do you beleive it was pop, out of the womb, and these skills to survive in harsh enviroments is instinct?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

So these people who live in desserts and mountains, they just know how to survive?
Dont you think they may have been shown how to survive by their parents/community, shown in this case being another word for trained, in the skills passed on by their ancestors, or do you beleive it was pop, out of the womb, and these skills to survive in harsh enviroments is instinct?

They pick it up usually. From where ever. That is hence my point on "formal" instruction, you would be looked at weirdly in some cases if you did a survival course and live in the bush. Yet a lot of people who live in it probbly dont know half of whats in a formal course and do fine most of the time and in day to day living.

Hell some people move to a remote location and literally learn everything through trial and error. They have no prior education or experience in the subject or not enough to make a diffrence in the context.

 

[Gweilo]

They pick it up usually. From where ever.

So they learn, do you think learnt by watchingbtheir parents?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

So they learn, do you think learnt by watchingbtheir parents?

Doing that, other people or via trial and error, many things are done in life. plenty of skills are picked up via trial and error without any proper direction.

 

[Gweilo]

Trial and error I agree, but who teaches the trial and error.
Talking as you are, I went to school, never learnt maths, it was trial and error.
On a slightly different note, are you actually training, or trial and erroring a martial art at present?

 

[Gweilo]

I think I may of come accross, the argue no matter what thread, one needs evidance to fit in with their narrow mind, another dont need proof as skills are instinctual, and you dont need training..
I would love to fight either of you, in a friendly way of course, DB, Inknow you are going to be fit and strong, you are goingvto have some skill, but I reckon no more than 2 , 3 mins rounds, I will put you night nights, Rat LMFAO, is that a flying cheese sarny, night night.

 

[Buka]

Looking back....

I've been through the desert......

 

[Gweilo]

On a horse with no name?

 

[drop bear]

How do you accurately balance the scales when it is the input that is unbalanced? Trash in/trash out would be the result. So nothing would really change.

Definitely not by never providing imput and then trying to use that to make an assessment.

Let's look at all the evidence that isn't there. Is just silly.

 

[Buka]

On a horse with no name?

Yes. It felt good to get out of the rain....

 

[drop bear]

Climb mount everest without training, drive a car without training, go walkabout in the great sandy dessert without training, theoretically you have a very slim chance of success on any of these, training gives you a better chance of overcoming obstacles or challenges, because you draw on experience of others that have experienced what you have been through, yes that can be quality training, it could be ineffective training, thats where pressure testing comes in, and the individuals responsibility to overcome

So if I do dry land swimming I will be better at climbing mount Everest?


You support this notion that training works. Then you support pressure testing it.

If training works you don't have to test it.

 

[drop bear]

I think I may of come accross, the argue no matter what thread, one needs evidance to fit in with their narrow mind, another dont need proof as skills are instinctual, and you dont need training..
I would love to fight either of you, in a friendly way of course, DB, Inknow you are going to be fit and strong, you are goingvto have some skill, but I reckon no more than 2 , 3 mins rounds, I will put you night nights, Rat LMFAO, is that a flying cheese sarny, night night.

The point is we don't know. So we don't make stuff up.

I mean come on guys 47 pages and that isn't self evident?

 

[Gweilo]

So if I do dry land swimming I will be better at climbing mount Everest?


You support this notion that training works. Then you support pressure testing it.

If training works you don't have to test it.

I just put a post on the Systema thread, through covidv19, the main thing I am missing is the contact, not because of the physicality of contact, but the learning process, becoming successful in my ability, whilst helping others become successful in theirs, its a process that is infinate, in my art, yours, or any other, you are in the stage of Me, thats fine, maybe one day you will understand, yes its great to push, but sometimes, you need others to push, guide and control what we are

 

[Gweilo]

If training works you don't have to test it.

Yes you do, or how do you know its effective, if you really beleive that, why do you preach mma, and the stats that so say back its training. At my age, there sre fery few 50 year olds, willing to fight, so I draw from my experience of my past, or sparring sessions I have had recently, most of which,mmy sparring partners are late 20's to early 40's, yes I may find the youngens fast, difficult to control, but my favorite quote from point break movie,, young, dumb, and full of cum, let them think they are special, then show them they aint, maybe I am a minority, 50 year old that spars with younger guys, I dougt it. Education, education, education, no matter how old you are.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I think I may of come accross, the argue no matter what thread, one needs evidance to fit in with their narrow mind, another dont need proof as skills are instinctual, and you dont need training..
I would love to fight either of you, in a friendly way of course, DB, Inknow you are going to be fit and strong, you are goingvto have some skill, but I reckon no more than 2 , 3 mins rounds, I will put you night nights, Rat LMFAO, is that a flying cheese sarny, night night.

All i have for the latter part of that one. i will reply with a proper response later, and because i dont want to get funny replies to a serious point or muddle the reactions.

 

[Steve]

I've missed a lot. So just to hit a couple of quick points I've noticed skimming through the last few days... People learn to do a lot of things without training. Trial and error is a thing. Opens up even more if you consider all of the things we learn to do with minimal, informal training. But no one builds real skill without experience.

Self defense isn't an actual thing that people can do. The best one can do is identify a specific context, identify skills that are complimentary and develop those skills through experience and training. So, where does this leave us? Well, if you think fighting is part of it, and you aren't fighting, you aren't learning to fight. If you think deescalation is part of it, but you have no occasion to deescalate, you aren't getting better at that. What you are hoping for is, much like CPR training, that you're training is better than nothing. In my opinion, to that sounds a lot like faith. And if you look at the stats on CPR, you're probably going to be very sorry if the **** hits the fan.

Regarding the self defense seminar, I'll just say again I admire anyone who can sell a product like that. It's honest, and I can't fault it. As I said before, that sounds like a great gig.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Cool. Can you describe a club that does this?

Okay, still not clear, but I assume you're talking about the first two sentences of that post - places that teach with a SD orientation and either compete or test with others outside competition.

I'm an example of the latter. There are folks on here who compete and have also discussed that at least part of their training orientiation is for SD. The woman who owns the Karate school I teach at was a frequent competitor (full contact Karate tournaments), and from talking with her instructor he does talk about SD in their training. Much of Tomiki Aikido falls into that category, as well. Many of the more serious folks I trained with liked to get together with folks from other styles and spar to find out what works against them. Though it's not nearly everyone in the SD world, it's also not all that rare, either.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This opens up something else. People do those without FORMAL training. If you grow up in a desert, its part of your life living in it, same with if you are ina mountanious area etc. If anything people living there would think its a little funny if you seek out formal training for it. and that is where doing and learning by doing comes into the equation. As well as learning by exposure.

Actually, they learn in that situattion through being around experienced folks all the time. They don't teach themselves.