The value of forms

[falcon]

i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.

 

[Headhunter]

Honestly if your asking that question then you probably shouldn't be teaching forms. What if your students ask that very question what's your answer? I don't know?

 

[Danny T]

1. There are many layers to the onion. In the early stages one only sees therefore knows only the outer layer. Learning the form and terminology. As one grows one will begin to experience and learn the other layers.
2. Form is about movement and structures (techniques). How to move from one and transition to another. There a multitude of applications of the techniques.
3. When learning to apply the movements there is the beginning point, all of the points that things can happen along the way, and the end point. Blocks aren't just blocks, punches aren't just punches, Etc. Stances are but a moment in time whereas mobility is more important.
4. If you don't know the above I feel you aren't ready to teach.

 

[jobo]

i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.

your correct there is no value at all in teaching forms that differ substantially from the technique, such value aqs form have is about establishing movement patterns, if the patterns are not the same pattern you teach during techniques, eiither the form or the technique is wrong possibly both

 

[jobo]

i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.

your correct there is no value at all in teaching forms that differ substantially from the technique, such value aqs form have is about establishing movement patterns, if the patterns are not the same pattern you teach during techniques, eiither the form or the technique is wrong possibly both

 

[jobo]

i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.

your correct there is no value at all in teaching forms that differ substantially from the technique, such value aqs form have is about establishing movement patterns, if the patterns are not the same pattern you teach during techniques, eiither the form or the technique is wrong possibly both

 

[falcon]

1. There are many layers to the onion. In the early stages one only sees therefore knows only the outer layer. Learning the form and terminology. As one grows one will begin to experience and learn the other layers.
2. Form is about movement and structures (techniques). How to move from one and transition to another. There a multitude of applications of the techniques.
3. When learning to apply the movements there is the beginning point, all of the points that things can happen along the way, and the end point. Blocks aren't just blocks, punches aren't just punches, Etc. Stances are but a moment in time whereas mobility is more important.
4. If you don't know the above I feel you aren't ready to teach.

i understand that stuff but, i also know that sometimes the application can be a very different movement so wouldn't it be better to train the real technique in a chain of movements instead of the form version of the technique.

 

[jobo]

i understand that stuff but, i also know that sometimes the application can be a very different movement so wouldn't it be better to train the real technique in a chain of movements instead of the form version of the technique.

YES

 

[falcon]

Honestly if your asking that question then you probably shouldn't be teaching forms. What if your students ask that very question what's your answer? I don't know?

i see some value so i tell them what it has, but i am thinking couldn't you do something else and get more value from it?

 

[Headhunter]

i understand that stuff but, i also know that sometimes the application can be a very different movement so wouldn't it be better to train the real technique in a chain of movements instead of the form version of the technique.

You should've been figuring this stuff out before you opened a school. I'm assuming you are a black belt, didn't you think to ask this question to your instructor

 

[jobo]

i see some value so i tell them what it has, but i am thinking couldn't you do something else and get more value from it?

YES

 

[Headhunter]

i see some value so i tell them what it has, but i am thinking couldn't you do something else and get more value from it?

Again these are questions that should've been asked before opening a school. I mean it's not an advanced level question I've heard that questioned asked by day 1 students so really it is something you should've had the answer to beforehand. It's also your instructor to blame for not telling you this just as part of the regular training he gave you

 

[falcon]

and please dont start bashing me on this thread i am wanting to understand and am open to get my mind changed, so i said my opinion and want to know others take on it.
I also understand that i have a lot of learning to go so thats why i am asking.

 

[Martial D]

i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.

I find forms to be soothing, good for gaining focus, and obviously can help with general fitness.

As far as using them to train useable technique....not so much.

 

[Headhunter]

and please dont start bashing me on this thread i am wanting to understand and am open to get my mind changed, so i said my opinion and want to know others take on it.
I also understand that i have a lot of learning to go so thats why i am asking.

No ones bashing on you, what I've said are my opinions on the subject you asked. As I said if it were me I'd stop teaching what I don't understand until I did. Because I'd be doing my students no favours teaching something I don't understand

 

[Headhunter]

At the end of the day you don't have to teach forms. It's your school you do what you want

 

[Martial D]

I don't know that he doesn't understand so much as reaching the point of cognative dissonance where you realize what you believed might not be true.

I see it a lot from TMA guys when transitioning to a combat sport.

 

[Headhunter]

I don't know that he doesn't understand so much as reaching the point of cognative dissonance where you realize what you believed might not be true.

I see it a lot from TMA guys when transitioning to a combat sport.

His exact words are

I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is,

And to me if you do a system where forms are required then that's something that should've been answered long before black belt and teaching level. Not blaming the op that's an instructor error not his own.

 

[Headhunter]

I don't know that he doesn't understand so much as reaching the point of cognative dissonance where you realize what you believed might not be true.

I see it a lot from TMA guys when transitioning to a combat sport.

Also there's a number of Mma guys who still practice forms. GSP (he has actually gone out his way to train with forms world champions) lyoto machida does forms daily, Stephen Thompson and probably a bunch of others as well.

 

[falcon]

No ones bashing on you, what I've said are my opinions on the subject you asked. As I said if it were me I'd stop teaching what I don't understand until I did. Because I'd be doing my students no favours teaching something I don't understand

would you be able to tell me some of the values that you see from the forms?