The value of forms

[falcon]

At the end of the day you don't have to teach forms. It's your school you do what you want

i want to have a better understanding of them for when i teach them.

 

[Headhunter]

would you be able to tell me some of the values that you see from the forms?

No because I don't do taekwondo

 

[falcon]

I find forms to be soothing, good for gaining focus, and obviously can help with general fitness.

As far as using them to train useable technique....not so much.

the first part is user based not everyone enjoys them, but if you do that then there is nothing wrong with that. its just not a reason for everyone to do them

for the second part of it can carry over some to usable techniques you just have to learn how to do it, which brings me to my original thought of why learn a pretty looking version and real life version for self defense if you dont enjoy doing the form. the main thing i have seen forms help me with is transitioning from different power stances, but even then i have had to change the stances to end up useing them.

 

[Headhunter]

i want to have a better understanding of them for when i teach them.

Then why not just ask your instructor or start training with another instructor and get the answers there

 

[falcon]

No because I don't do taekwondo

do you do a martial art with forms and if so what have you seen the value to be in that art

 

[Headhunter]

the first part is user based not everyone enjoys them, but if you do that then there is nothing wrong with that. its just not a reason for everyone to do them

for the second part of it can carry over some to usable techniques you just have to learn how to do it, which brings me to my original thought of why learn a pretty looking version and real life version for self defense if you dont enjoy doing the form. the main thing i have seen forms help me with is transitioning from different power stances, but even then i have had to change the stances to end up useing them.

Just because you don't enjoy them doesn't mean everyone doesn't I've met loads of people who prefer forms to sparring or partner work

 

[falcon]

Then why not just ask your instructor or start training with another instructor and get the answers there

getting answers from several different people is always goo cause everyone has learn different things

 

[Headhunter]

do you do a martial art with forms and if so what have you seen the value to be in that art

Yes I have and honestly there's not much point going deep into it here. It's a totally different system with different ideas it wouldn't do you any good

 

[Headhunter]

getting answers from several different people is always goo cause everyone has learn different things

Yes but for teaching you need to have a set base that's constant not just change your mind every time you hear a different view. At the end of the day you need a teacher. Same way you can't learn martial arts from books you can't get a good base understanding by hearing strangers opinions. You need a teacher you can trust to guide you through it

 

[falcon]

Just because you don't enjoy them doesn't mean everyone doesn't I've met loads of people who prefer forms to sparring or partner work

okay that probably came across wrong, i dont enjoy them that much but i do know plenty of people that do, and there is nothing wrong with doing them if you want to.

 

[Headhunter]

okay that probably came across wrong, i dont enjoy them that much but i do know plenty of people that do, and there is nothing wrong with doing them if you want to.

Is it possible that since you don't like them you basically zoned out when your instructor was explaining this stuff to you and now years later you're realising you missed on valuable knowledge you now need

 

[falcon]

Yes I have and honestly there's not much point going deep into it here. It's a totally different system with different ideas it wouldn't do you any good

could you just tell me a few benefits you've seen and what art it is then i can go look into it to try to understand the few points you give me. then i can see if i can get anything to apply to tkd

 

[falcon]

Yes but for teaching you need to have a set base that's constant not just change your mind every time you hear a different view. At the end of the day you need a teacher. Same way you can't learn martial arts from books you can't get a good base understanding by hearing strangers opinions. You need a teacher you can trust to guide you through it

i agree with that statement, but i also still think its good to get others view points, cause you can then ask about them and find out for yourself about stuff cause everyone is taught different and sometimes 2 people might be taught the same thing but they both take something different from it so theirs n harm in learning from both off those people to try and get the whole picture so you can better understand. hopefully that makes since if not i can try to explain my thoughts better.

 

[wab25]

Step 1 - dig around in these forums. This question has been done a lot. You will find answers that run from they are not useful at all, they are just there to copy and make look cool, all the way to the other end, that there are layers to them, with lots of stuff inside if you look. Read those viewpoints, pick the one you like, and run with it.

Step 2 - if you have not abandoned them yet, it would be good to learn how they were intended to be used. Many people have misunderstood what they are and how they were designed to be used. Look into the Shu Ha Ri pattern. Yes, its Japanese. Many of the founders of TKD studied Karate. Two of them studied with Funakoshi and one studied with Funakoshi's Sensei. By studied, I mean attained black belts, and at least in General Choi's case, he had his own Karate dojo in Japan before returning to Korea. When these guys started teaching TKD, they taught the Karate kata, then renamed them, then rearranged the movements and made their own versions. However, they kept the pattern. Shu Ha Ri is the pattern that the Japanese used to transmit knowledge and skill. The kata / forms part is step 1 of the transmission. When learning to play a musical instrument, they teach you to play the individual notes first. How to read the note, then place your fingers correctly and play the note. They then have you doing exercises playing the different notes and transitioning from one note to the other. Then you start learning scales. No, you don't actually play those finger exercises when performing at concerts... so why learn them? I can learn to play the song I want to play and skip all that stuff.

This is what the kata/forms are. They are a piece of the transmission process. To be specific, they are the first part. They teach you the notes and some scales. If used correctly, they can be the basis that you can build upon, so that you can easily play quite a few different songs and even learn new ones fairly quickly. You will have to do some extra work up front before you get to your favorite song. Or, you can skip straight to your favorite song and study it. Whichever route you take is fine. Both have pros and cons. But take the route that you enjoy.

Here is one essay on Shu Ha Ri that goes into some good detail about how the process should be done. Note that many places, many schools, and many styles now only do the copy for copy sake method... mainly because thats how they were taught.

Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin kai

 

[Buka]

There are a lot of different aspects to Martial Arts, a lot of different methods, different exercises, different techniques, principles etc. Forms are part of that.

I am of the opinion it's not so much what you do, but how you do it. If you're going to be do something in Martial Arts you should be doing it with your whole heart and soul. Don't stroll through forms, attack them with passion and much vigor.

 

[falcon]

There are a lot of different aspects to Martial Arts, a lot of different methods, different exercises, different techniques, principles etc. Forms are part of that.

I am of the opinion it's not so much what you do, but how you do it. If you're going to be do something in Martial Arts you should be doing it with your whole heart and soul. Don't stroll through forms, attack them with passion and much vigor.

i train hard on them when i was training under my instructor and got decent at them but i want to understand them more and am trying to figure that out to teach my students

 

[falcon]

Step 1 - dig around in these forums. This question has been done a lot. You will find answers that run from they are not useful at all, they are just there to copy and make look cool, all the way to the other end, that there are layers to them, with lots of stuff inside if you look. Read those viewpoints, pick the one you like, and run with it.

Step 2 - if you have not abandoned them yet, it would be good to learn how they were intended to be used. Many people have misunderstood what they are and how they were designed to be used. Look into the Shu Ha Ri pattern. Yes, its Japanese. Many of the founders of TKD studied Karate. Two of them studied with Funakoshi and one studied with Funakoshi's Sensei. By studied, I mean attained black belts, and at least in General Choi's case, he had his own Karate dojo in Japan before returning to Korea. When these guys started teaching TKD, they taught the Karate kata, then renamed them, then rearranged the movements and made their own versions. However, they kept the pattern. Shu Ha Ri is the pattern that the Japanese used to transmit knowledge and skill. The kata / forms part is step 1 of the transmission. When learning to play a musical instrument, they teach you to play the individual notes first. How to read the note, then place your fingers correctly and play the note. They then have you doing exercises playing the different notes and transitioning from one note to the other. Then you start learning scales. No, you don't actually play those finger exercises when performing at concerts... so why learn them? I can learn to play the song I want to play and skip all that stuff.

This is what the kata/forms are. They are a piece of the transmission process. To be specific, they are the first part. They teach you the notes and some scales. If used correctly, they can be the basis that you can build upon, so that you can easily play quite a few different songs and even learn new ones fairly quickly. You will have to do some extra work up front before you get to your favorite song. Or, you can skip straight to your favorite song and study it. Whichever route you take is fine. Both have pros and cons. But take the route that you enjoy.

Here is one essay on Shu Ha Ri that goes into some good detail about how the process should be done. Note that many places, many schools, and many styles now only do the copy for copy sake method... mainly because thats how they were taught.

Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin kai

thanks for the reply i will look into that, and i that music anology makes alot of since.
you mentioned eiether way you want to learn is fine, so i wanted your opoinin on teaching the forms but not worry about having my students do them perfectly if they dont care to do them and let them learn those methods other ways and help the ones that do enjoy them get better at them

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms.

IMO, the purpose of the form is for

- teaching,
- learning, and
- recording information.

It's not used for training.

couldn't you do something else and get more value from it?

A form is like a paragraph (a set of sentences) such as, "This is a book. What do I do with a book?"

There is no logical connection between book and what. Whether you may train "This is a book. What do I do with a book?" 10 times, or if you train "This is a book." 10 times and also train "What do I do with a book?" 10 times. The result is the same. That means you don't need to train the whole form. As long as you know how to break the form apart, to train drills will get you the same benefit or even better benefit.

After you have learned this form, you will need to figure the following:

- This is a pen.
- That is a book.
- This is not a book.
- ...
- What do I do with a pen?
- What do you do with a book?
- ...

Since you also need to spend time to train these drills, you just cannot spend all your training time in your original form.

 

[wab25]

so i wanted your opoinin on teaching the forms but not worry about having my students do them perfectly if they dont care to do them

If you as the teacher don't care, then the students won't care. You need to decide what you want to do, what you want to teach.

I am of the opinion it's not so much what you do, but how you do it. If you're going to be do something in Martial Arts you should be doing it with your whole heart and soul. Don't stroll through forms, attack them with passion and much vigor.

This!!! If you are going to do forms, then do them. If you are going to do some other thing, do that. If you are doing the other, then you are wasting time by doing forms... because no one cares about them.

If you are going to do the forms, see Buka's thoughts. Learn as much as you can about them, and don't be afraid to change your thoughts and even your method of training as you learn more. Doing anything and not worrying about the outcome, is a waste of time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As far as using them to train useable technique....not so much.

I like to

- sweep my opponent's leading leg,
- push his leading arm to jam his back arm, and
- apply a head lock on his neck

I cannot find this combo ever been recorded in any forms that exist on this planet.

That mean:

- Information that has been recorded in the forms are not what I want to train.
- What I want to train is not in the form.