The Point in Forms

[fissure]

Sorry to double post - dinner was ready!
I don't think that TKD forms where "thrown together" anymore so than Karate forms.Also I find it hard to beleive that say the Heian kata are really

living documents of actual technique combinations that were used in real life

. They seem about as basic as the Taeguek forms, and are still very similar in base pattern.I'm just trying to answer your question, I don't want to get into a 'my kata are better than yours' debate.:asian:

 

[tonbo]

What kind of idiot uses forms as an actual attack?

Okay, I will be one of the first to raise my hand and say that I believe in the value of having forms. There is a LOT that they can teach you (I won't repeat all the things, since they have been discussed better and clearer than I could put them), but how to actually SPAR is not on the list, IMHO.

Anyone who fights you from a horse stance deserves every bit of the beating he gets. That's just plain stupid. Most of the people I have seen, from a number of different arts, use a modified fighting stance. You might use a "T" stance or more of a boxer/Muay Thai/Savate type "front" stance, but in almost all cases, you DON'T just face forward. That's insane, in my opinion.

Judo-Kid, not to be rude, but green belts don't spar anywhere NEAR how a true competitor is going to spar. For that matter, neither do beginning boxers. For most of the beginning to intermediate phase of learning *any* martial art, you are focusing more on the basics, and learning what does and doesn't work. Only when you hit the more advanced levels do you start to see not only what does and doesn't work, but *why* it does or doesn't work.

If you really want to get an edge on your competition, don't spar green belts. *Start* with sparring green belts, then spar all the brown and Black Belts that you can. Ask them to point out openings that they see; ask them to give you tips. Spar other styles, especially styles that are non-conventional (capoeira, for example). Spar grapplers, kickers, boxers, streetfighters--anyone that you can interact with. Another major point--spar people *older* than you are (not just someone in the 17-21 range). Some of the best tips I have received, I received from guys 10-20 years older than me. Trust me--their knowledge, when they give it to you, can be worth a LOT. When sparring any of these people, ask them to point out what openings and weaknesses they see. Get their input, and tell them what your goals are. Ask humbly for help, and ask if they will work with you. You would be surprised at what people will help you with, if you ask the right way.

If you are in a martial art that doesn't use forms, that's fine. If you don't know why other arts use forms, then ask--but ask politely. Relaying stories about why forms suck is not a good way to get the honest answer you are looking for.

Okay, I wandered off topic a bit here. I apologize. But the main thrust is that forms, like anything else in a martial art, have their place; more for some arts than others. If you really want to know why people use forms, go to other schools and strike up conversations with some of the senior students. Ask *them* the questions (and ask *politely*). During the conversation, again, tell them what you are doing and what your goals are--see if they can help you out. You never know......

--Rant mode off (again)--

Good luck!!

Peace--

 

[DKI Girl]

Originally posted by tonbo

What kind of idiot uses forms as an actual attack?

Anyone who fights you from a horse stance deserves every bit of the beating he gets. That's just plain stupid. Most of the people I have seen, from a number of different arts, use a modified fighting stance. You might use a "T" stance or more of a boxer/Muay Thai/Savate type "front" stance, but in almost all cases, you DON'T just face forward. That's insane, in my opinion.

Okay...I'll bite.....I will use my katas in an actual attack.....every time I practice that down "block" in my kata, I picture in my head.....punch into the stomach (soloplex), reach around their head, grab an ear or handful of hair, step back and make my turn, and break the neck.....

That's one of the many applications of a down "block" that I practice....I and pull it right out of my katas....every time.

Each technique out of the kata can represent many different applications......for example....horse stance.....think about when you are grappling on the ground and you are in the mount position.....isn't that similar to a horse stance....then take your hand movements from the kata and execute the technique from the ground.

Just some ideas.......

dki girl

 

[Master of Blades]

no offense, but I hope you are pretty awesome if you wanna be in UFC! Otherwise you are gonna be down and out before the bell rings. I think you underestimate the buissness and the skill needed!

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by tonbo


Anyone who fights you from a horse stance deserves every bit of the beating he gets.

I agree.
Stances are used to tranfer from one position to another not to stop and "pose".
I sparred someone that used a horse stance once............I kicked him right in the nuts. He learned a good lesson the hard way.
Ancient Chinese saying: "Good medicine taste bad"

Originally posted by tonbo

Judo-Kid, not to be rude, but green belts don't spar anywhere NEAR how a true competitor is going to spar. For that matter, neither do beginning boxers. For most of the beginning to intermediate phase of learning *any* martial art, you are focusing more on the basics, and learning what does and doesn't work. Only when you hit the more advanced levels do you start to see not only what does and doesn't work, but *why* it does or doesn't work.

Judo Kid,
Also not to be rude but taken it from someone that has trained about twice as long as you have been alive............you have a lot to learn.

I have seen white belts that could pound the crap out of black belts.
Rule #1: Belts don't mean d**k.

Originally posted by tonbo

If you really want to get an edge on your competition, don't spar green belts. *Start* with sparring green belts, then spar all the brown and Black Belts that you can. Ask them to point out openings that they see; ask them to give you tips. Spar other styles, especially styles that are non-conventional (capoeira, for example). Spar grapplers, kickers, boxers, streetfighters--anyone that you can interact with. Another major point--spar people *older* than you are (not just someone in the 17-21 range). Some of the best tips I have received, I received from guys 10-20 years older than me. Trust me--their knowledge, when they give it to you, can be worth a LOT. When sparring any of these people, ask them to point out what openings and weaknesses they see. Get their input, and tell them what your goals are. Ask humbly for help, and ask if they will work with you. You would be surprised at what people will help you with, if you ask the right way.

Excellent advice.
You wanna play Tarzan you better know what kind of animals live in the jungle first................learn as much as you can from everywhere.
I can't stress enough the importance of asking *politely* for advice because saying things like "forms are useless" to someone that *knows* what forms are for might get you one of 2 responses.
One might be a polite explanation followed by a demonstration.
Another might be they simply rip the guys head off and drop a big brown down the hole where his head used to be.

 

[sweeper]

for some reason that reminds me of an old computer game

 

[YiLiJingLei]

Hi, Judo-Kid,
Is this the school where you train?

Judo-Boxing-Ju Jitsu-Wrestling Gym
355 Rainier N RENTON, WA 98055-1321
tel (425) 226-1655

Just curious, it would be interesting to see what's taught in classes at your school. If this is the wrong place, please let us know. It's been a long time since I was studying Judo.
Kind of a side note, but I remember my Judo teacher telling us Dr. Jigoro Kano (Judo's founder) taught Judo forms as part of the original cirriculum, but most've been forgotten, even in Japan. Obviously, the founder of your art thought forms have value, though they were likeley quite different than the Karate/TaeKwonDo forms you've witnessed. Perhaps something else for you to consider before jumping to wild conclusions.


:asian:

 

[sweeper]

if a form is usefull... how does it get lost?

 

[tonbo]

I can see your point, and I will agree that I will use parts of techniques out of either katas or techniques in sparring---*parts*, not whole techniques. And yes, a mount position is *similar* to horse stance, but horse stance is definitely NOT a fighting stance.

The point that I was trying to make was essentially that forms serve many good purposes, but that teaching whole sparring combinations wasn't actually one of them. Maybe other people are very different from me, but I don't find that I actually have the *time* to pull of a series of complex moves during sparring. My situation usually changes within seconds. If I am in the middle of a technique and my opponent changes up on me, I gotta think fast. I think it is easier to just "go with the flow" instead of trying to pull off a set technique.

I value forms, I just don't use them as much in my sparring. It's just the way I do things...

No offense, btw, intended or implied.

Peace--

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by fissure

I don't think that TKD forms where "thrown together" anymore so than Karate forms.

Perhaps "thrown together" is a bad phrase, but they were not assembled over a great period of time, that's for sure... One day they are done one way (the same as Shotokan, just with higher stances and kicks), and about a year later they are all significantly different...

And it hard to beleive that say the Heian kata are really "living documents of actual technique combinations that were used in real life." They seem about as basic as the Taeguek forms, and are still very similar in base pattern.[/B]

Why is that? Because extremely complex combinations don't jump right out at you? There are some very complex and advanced techniques contained in forms that are considered to be "basic." While there are forms that seem to have had a strong inclination toward the practice of basic techniques, there still are combinations of intermediate and advanced application contained therein...

...I don't want to get into a 'my kata are better than yours' debate.

Never went that way, not going to go that way... Not saying that there may not well be some very good techniques contained in the "new" TKD forms, just that they are, in point of fact, "new" in comparison to the forms they replaced.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[fissure]

Indeed they are new.It seems to me that all forms where at one time or another 'new'. Since Shotokan keeps coming up (Trained in it for over 3 yrs - loved it!), are all of their kata ancient.I know some like bassai-dai are old, but are they all taken from other older arts?I've read that Itosu may have created the heian kata.If this is so then one day they did'nt exsist (other that in a mental 'library') and the next day they did. Even if he is not the creator of the forms - someone is.Some idividual used their experience to invision the pattern and movements.I don't see how this is different from Korean Masters using their experience to create seperate TKD poomse.

Also I find it hard to beleive that say the Heian kata are reallyquote: living documents of actual technique combinations that were used in real life

Why is that? Because extremely complex combinations don't jump right out at you? There are some very complex and advanced techniques contained in forms that are considered to be "basic."

No.I'm refering to say - the 3 high blocks performed in sucssesion.I just can't imagine an actuall conflict where this happened.I'm not saying there are not useful movements to be found, even combination of several tech.And I understand about reverse engineering and such,the chamber of a down block could BE the block and the rest of the motion could be any of half a dozen things depending on who you talk too.Rember I was defending forms practice here!At this point in my MA life, forms practice and study is becoming more and more interesting to me.
Even with the change of forms by the WTF, you can still see the influences.Pyong won still looks like the Tekki katas!I think they should have left well enough alone, and addmitted than TKD was basically Shotokan.If they wanted their 'own' forms they should have just added them to the exsisting ones.
Many schools still practice the older forms in addition to the new WTF ones.We still use Bassai and Lo hai (ro hai - I think Meikyo is Shotokan version?) and Sip su (not sure about the origins of this one!).Anyway I'm starting to ramble.....:EG:

 

[tshadowchaser]

There have been some excellent posts in this thread.
Much of what we learn in the Martial Arts is not always obvious to the outside world. Nonmartial arts people see us as learning only how to kick punch, throw and make people submit. What they don't realise is that hundred no thousands of hours go into getting a technique correct and learning what its is really all about and how to preform it correctly without the need to think about it.
A form , as has been stated by many, instructs one in the proper movement of the body when doing a movement. Learning what that movement is all about is a journey in and of itslef.
Lessons in life are much like forms. Even the most simple things we do are the foundation of the complex. If learning a form is no more than learning to do what is asked of you without crying and complaining it is a lesson that can be carried over into your daily life. When you go a little further and put forth effort into the form and make/do it the best you can, trying to always improve, that lesson also will start to carry over into your everyday life.
Shadow

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by tonbo

What kind of idiot uses forms as an actual attack?

Okay, I will be one of the first to raise my hand and say that I believe in the value of having forms. There is a LOT that they can teach you (I won't repeat all the things, since they have been discussed better and clearer than I could put them), but how to actually SPAR is not on the list, IMHO.

Anyone who fights you from a horse stance deserves every bit of the beating he gets. That's just plain stupid. Most of the people I have seen, from a number of different arts, use a modified fighting stance. You might use a "T" stance or more of a boxer/Muay Thai/Savate type "front" stance, but in almost all cases, you DON'T just face forward. That's insane, in my opinion.

Judo-Kid, not to be rude, but green belts don't spar anywhere NEAR how a true competitor is going to spar. For that matter, neither do beginning boxers. For most of the beginning to intermediate phase of learning *any* martial art, you are focusing more on the basics, and learning what does and doesn't work. Only when you hit the more advanced levels do you start to see not only what does and doesn't work, but *why* it does or doesn't work.

If you really want to get an edge on your competition, don't spar green belts. *Start* with sparring green belts, then spar all the brown and Black Belts that you can. Ask them to point out openings that they see; ask them to give you tips. Spar other styles, especially styles that are non-conventional (capoeira, for example). Spar grapplers, kickers, boxers, streetfighters--anyone that you can interact with. Another major point--spar people *older* than you are (not just someone in the 17-21 range). Some of the best tips I have received, I received from guys 10-20 years older than me. Trust me--their knowledge, when they give it to you, can be worth a LOT. When sparring any of these people, ask them to point out what openings and weaknesses they see. Get their input, and tell them what your goals are. Ask humbly for help, and ask if they will work with you. You would be surprised at what people will help you with, if you ask the right way.

If you are in a martial art that doesn't use forms, that's fine. If you don't know why other arts use forms, then ask--but ask politely. Relaying stories about why forms suck is not a good way to get the honest answer you are looking for.

Okay, I wandered off topic a bit here. I apologize. But the main thrust is that forms, like anything else in a martial art, have their place; more for some arts than others. If you really want to know why people use forms, go to other schools and strike up conversations with some of the senior students. Ask *them* the questions (and ask *politely*). During the conversation, again, tell them what you are doing and what your goals are--see if they can help you out. You never know......

--Rant mode off (again)--

Good luck!!

Peace--

Tonbo, you make a very good point here about forms in fighting. Yet, their are fighting forms or specifically "Fighting Jin" patterns used in qi gong for actual violent confrontation. Like many other martial art teachers, i have developed a short form for women to use in practice as well as actual street combat. This is also a qi gong form. It's name is Poision Fan. The beginner will use it for strenthening the arms, hands, fingers, shoulders, tendons, muscles, and legs. As the beginner develops into the intermediate level practitioner, she can then start to use segments of the form in actual confrontation. When she gets the advanced level down, then the complete form and it's variations can be used as a close quarter's self-defense style within the original system she is learning. The men in the class can also use the form as a self defense tool for their over-all martial street defensive development. They will specifically use it as a teaching tool. Poision Fan consists of Dragon Crape checks; Eagle's Talon Clawing, Right and Left Fanning, Double Fanning, Double Palm Pushing, Right and Left Pushing, And The Transforming Fans!
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[tonbo]

I'll buy that. I don't deny that parts of forms get used in actual sparring or combat. I just find it hard to believe that someone would actually be able to pull off a full technique that consists of more than a couple of moves.

Then again, I ain't all that experienced, IMHO...

For example: a very simple technique that I know is as follows, against a right punch: From a right guarding stance, right inward block to opponent's punch. Follow with a right back knuckle to the temple, then a right back knuckle to the solar plexus. Right elbow smash to the left pin of the jaw, followed by a right outward shuto to opponent's right side of neck. End with a right inward shuto to the opponent's left side of the neck.

Okay, please understand, this is a VERY basic technique, and I have left out checks, use of the left hand, and other "cool" bits--just put in the very bare bones.

Now, even if I change the targeting of the elbow to hit the chest (to be more "legal" in sparring), I *still* can't pull this whole technique off. Usually, I get about half of it before all bets are off (before my opponent either hits me or gets too close to hitting me).

Maybe I don't think or move fast enough, I don't know. However, I have been told before that my situation is fairly typical. I have also been told not to rely on being able to get off whole techniques, whether from forms or not--stick to the simple moves, put together in short, simple sets. For me, flowing and doing the old "stick and move" works much better than pulling in sets from a form or whole techniques.

I won't deny that there are some forms more geared toward combat. Makes sense. However, I will stick to the belief that "forms is forms and sparring is sparring"; forms, like techniques, were created for "ideal" situations. I have yet to have an opponent hit me or attempt to hit me in an "ideal" situation. There is usually more going on....

Anyway, not to argue with you. If you or your students pull off techniques, or if anyone else does, hey....more power to you. My opinions are my own, based on my experience. If I am wrong, so be it (I know I need to train more, anyway--always will!).

Thanks for the reply!!

Peace--

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by tonbo

I'll buy that. I don't deny that parts of forms get used in actual sparring or combat. I just find it hard to believe that someone would actually be able to pull off a full technique that consists of more than a couple of moves.

Real fights usually don't last longer than "a couple of moves."

For example: a very simple technique that I know is as follows, against a right punch: From a right guarding stance, right inward block to opponent's punch. Follow with a right back knuckle to the temple, then a right back knuckle to the solar plexus. Right elbow smash to the left pin of the jaw, followed by a right outward shuto to opponent's right side of neck. End with a right inward shuto to the opponent's left side of the neck.

Why is everything done with the right hand? A backfist strike to the solar plexus? That technique is unsuitable for such a target - there is simply too little penetration possible. Also, do you assume that the opponent is going to stand still and allow all these strikes to happen, or that after one or two strikes there will have been no effect that causes his posture to change? After the elbow strike, I would think he would have moved a bit, hopefully toward sucking floor... Two knifehand strikes with the same hand to both sides of the neck? No need... if one is done properly, there is no need for both...

Okay, please understand, this is a VERY basic technique, and I have left out checks, use of the left hand, and other "cool" bits--just put in the very bare bones.

If this is a basic form technique used in your school, it is no wonder why people have difficulty understanding how forms translate to a real fight... The number of techniques used, the targets they are aimed at, and the way they are being used all make me think that whoever put that series together (and I admit that you stated that you did not include everything in your example - I am responding only to what you shared with us) wasn't thinking too clearly... And if those techniques are being explained as all applying to the same opponent, they are being taught improperly...

Now, even if I change the targeting of the elbow to hit the chest (to be more "legal" in sparring), I *still* can't pull this whole technique off. Usually, I get about half of it before all bets are off (before my opponent either hits me or gets too close to hitting me).

And the ugly reality of thinking sparring equals fighting rears its head... The reason the series of techniques is difficult if not impossible to use in sparring is that the strikes in forms (at least the forms I know of and practice) are intended to be debilitating ones - some strikes are set ups, some are not strikes at all... But ultimately the result is the incapacitation of the opponent, and in sparring you simply aren't allowed to do what needs to be done to put the opponent through the floor.

Maybe I don't think or move fast enough, I don't know. However, I have been told before that my situation is fairly typical.

Typical for who(m)? I will say that the number of schools that could translate forms into applicable techniques that I have been associated with is a very small number... Honestly, I can count them on one hand.

I have also been told not to rely on being able to get off whole techniques, whether from forms or not--stick to the simple moves, put together in short, simple sets. For me, flowing and doing the old "stick and move" works much better than pulling in sets from a form or whole techniques.

If you are being "told" that, then I suspect you are being "taught" that...

In one of the first forms taught in Yiliquan, Di Yi Guan Nien, the series is as follows:

Opponent attacks with right punch.

Facing opponent, step to the inside of his punch with left inside block, following with left spear hand to the neck (vital point strike to slow him down), right punch to the solar plexus (can also be a grab, and in one variant break down it must be), kick with the right leg past the opponent to pull the kicking leg back through the opponent's knee to push him down...

Straight from the form, straight to application, works like nobody's business...

I won't deny that there are some forms more geared toward combat. Makes sense.

Admittedly, some forms do seem geared more toward practicing basic techniques than others... I was receiving some instruction on that very topic last week from RyuShiKan regarding some Okinawan forms, and was given a demonstration of where the form in question got all of its sections...

However, I will stick to the belief that "forms is forms and sparring is sparring"; forms, like techniques, were created for "ideal" situations. I have yet to have an opponent hit me or attempt to hit me in an "ideal" situation. There is usually more going on....

"Forms are forms," and "sparring is sparring" only in schools who are unable to translate their forms into real techniques. I would recommend training with any Yiliquan people, Isshin-ryu under Sherman Harrill (in Iowa), or RyuTe Karate anywhere if you want to see how forms translate into real techniques that work no matter what...

Anyway, not to argue with you. If you or your students pull off techniques, or if anyone else does, hey....more power to you. My opinions are my own, based on my experience. If I am wrong, so be it (I know I need to train more, anyway--always will!).

And we all need to train more... Good post!

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[Master of Blades]

This is of no use to this particular post, but may I say that this place has some of the best "discussions" I've ever seen and theres obviously a lot of diverse views. It makes a change from the "what if" questions I get when my freinds to try to argue Martial Arts. Anyway..........carry on :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Just a couple of basic ground rules on kata and training in general.

1) Don't blame the art for something you yourself can't/don't understand at this point in your training. Either you didn't learn something correctly or you weren't taught it correctly........or both. It's never the art's fault only your own.

2) Sparring is not real fighting, it's only practice so you can work on speed, power, timing, distance, balance and so on.

3) A fight should never last more than a few seconds.


4) Real techniques work on anyone regardless of size.

5) The only difference between fights long ago and now is that more people have access to guns now than say 150 years ago. So saying this or that better prepares you for a modern fight is crap. People punch and kick just like they always have.

6) There are more law suits resulting from people being invloved in fights now than ever before.............think about that.

7) The Okinawan masters that developed kata were not stupid people. They were in fact more serious about their art than todays practioners since they had to use their art to protect themselves or someone else and not to win trophies or make the cover of a MA magazine. Kata has meaning........if you haven't found someone good enough to explain it and show it then perhaps you need to look further and deeper.

8) A popular saying is "all fights end up on the ground", this is not true. The only person that should end up on the ground is the loser. If you are both rolling around on the ground there is nothing stopping his friends from coming up and kicking your teeth in while you are tied up trying your latest strangle hold.

 

[chufeng]

RyuShiKan,

Nice post...I concur...

The part about thinking that all fights go to ground was right on the mark...most fights DO go to ground, because the defending combatant doesn't know HOW to prevent it.

I train with a guy who actually has some training in a version of Oyata's Karate (I'll get the name of the instructor for you)...he is also trained in Brazilian JuJitsu and Arnis...He has developed some bad habits from arnis and relies too much on his ability to fight on the ground...so, his stand-up game is weak.

I sparred with him about four months ago...mind you I recently had a big bone whack on one leg and have been unable to really train hard...at any rate, after being totally ineffective at trying to bring me to the ground, he had the nerve to call me a tar baby...can you imagine??? Bottom line...I didn't attack once, but completely neutralized his attacks each and every time...of course there were plenty of opportunities to attack, but that was not the lesson I was trying to share with him that day...I wanted to show him that relying on one skill alone will NOT help in all situations...

He got the point and was totally spent...I was not at all tired (and since I haven't been able to run a lot, I am NOT in the best of shape)...

Anyways, just an anecdotal account that confirms your contention that NOT all fights go to ground.

One good punch/strike is really all it should take for a trained martial artist...but we do train to strike in 3s in YiLi, just for the added insurance.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Shinzu]

i have never used any form as a means of sparring, but there are (in my art) certain drill sequences for the first 5 phyung forms.

they require both blocking and striking techniques. i feel this is very benificial in learning the actual application the form is teaching.

when i learn a new form, i ask why, what, and how it is being applied. my instructor is very knowledgeable about these things.

besides... if you don't know what you're doing you shouldn't be teaching or learning it.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng


I train with a guy who actually has some training in a version of Oyata's Karate (I'll get the name of the instructor for you)..

I would appreciate that. If he is claming it is a "version" I am a little skeptical of how long, if at all, he trained with Mr. Oyata. There are a few people lately using my teachers name that have no real business doing so. Going to a couple of seminars doesn't qualify one as a student of someones. Most people that join Mr. Oyata's Assoc. and get to a level where they start getting some real skill don't usually quite.