What Good are Forms?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by dvcochran, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Which clip (or picture) are you referencing to?
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    And I feel like forms should change. Even the best form won't fit every instructor's approach equally.
     
  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Forms usually change based on what the teacher sees fit for the students to learn. There are very few schools that try to keep it exactly the same. If they do keep it exactly the same then it's usually more to preserve history and tradition more than anything else. name a form and look for it on youtube and you'll see many variations of it.
     
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  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    1000 years from today, a form that's 1000 years old, or a form that's 1050 years old are both considered as "ancient". If you burry anything in your back yard, it will become antique 1000 years from today.

    If you are old, and if you are also a Chinese, anything that you may say can be quoted as "
    Old Chinese saying said …".

    Don't look down on yourself. You are part of the history.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
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  5. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    You post yesterday at 1:34 showing groups of people doing forms together. I think of a partner drill as two people physically interacting with each other. The classic one-step sparring in TKD for example; one person executes an attack and the other person counters.
     
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  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Here are examples of partner drill training for both striking art and throwing art.



    [/QUOTE]
     
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  7. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    [/QUOTE]
    Now we are talking partner drills.:cool:
     
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  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    It only becomes a part of history if someone continues your teachings. If you teach me something. I learn it. But I decided that what you taught wasn't effective to learning how to fight. Then your teachings will no longer have the option of being 1000 years old. But it will become forgotten.

    If you bury anything in your back yard and I come by dig it up and decided that it's useless and only gets in the way of me growing my garden, then it will only become trash.
     
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  9. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I'm only part of the history if I leave something behind, or leave something for someone to carry on. Anything less than that, then I'll be forgotten like so many others, even history won't know me.
     
  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Only history will tell whether your form contribution have any value or not.

    I hope someday someone will thank me for creating this short form to help that person to remember the 13 postures training.



    My teacher had created a video with 11 postures training. My short form make it complete.


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    As long as you leave something behind. A book or video sharing your knowledge. That's about the best way to ensure a contribution of value.

    How many times have we referenced old video footage and written books about fighting.
     
  12. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Green Belt

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    I could have used several other posts to intro mine, but this one is short and to the point (plus, I agree.) Karate is sometimes taken as a broad term. There are so many offshoots and self-started styles or lineages that the term can be ambiguous. For me, "real" karate means what was taught in Okinawa for the past 200 years (though back then known by other terms), tweaking the imported Chinese styles.

    As originally developed, the kata was composed of kumite and kihon techniques. Kihon + kumite + linking them into a set series = kata = karate. But during the 20th century, these three elements diverged: Kumite became sport adapted sparring (no throat and eye strikes and no breaks, etc); kihon became basic blocks, strikes and kicks; and kata became a bunch of moves to perform (half of which nobody really knew what they meant). Recently, this has been changing thanks to some traditional veterans who have been researching and rediscovering "traditional" Okinawan karate.

    As a result, kata, kihon and combat kumite are becoming realigned. Kumite and kihon are contained in the kata once again. Once again, Karate = Kata.
     
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  13. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Green Belt

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    Me think dat if it's oaky-dokey to chanj forms just to pleeze instructor's sence uv how to do (or spell) it, there B az many formz, and eventually stylz, az instructors. Just becawz one has sertin way speaking doesn't mean they shood re-rite the dikshunary.

    I think it's better for the instructor to learn the true meaning/spelling/pronunciation of the form and adapt his teaching method (not the form) for a particular student. If after this he thinks the form needs to be changed, maybe his style or form he learned is not what it should be. Maybe this situation is the result of a prior instructor and the instructor before him changing what used to be a fully functional form because they thought it fit their personal approach better. After a while, the form devolves and the template no longer works as well as it should.

    Another metaphor: My mother used to bake a pretty good banana bread. But I didn't like a strong banana taste so I used only one banana. My wife likes chocolate so she added a good amount of it. My son liked chocolate a lot so he added even more. My grandson hates bananas so he left out the one banana. My other grandson like chewy stuff - that's his approach, so he used less egg and more oil. Turns out he made delicious brownies, but his kids will never know what banana bread is.

    The only exception, in my opinion, would be a bona fide 8th or 9th degree, who has not promoted himself, intimately understands the true meaning of his forms as originally intended by former grandmasters, and is accepted by his peers as a master himself. If this guy wants to change a move, OK by me.
     
  14. Mitlov

    Mitlov Blue Belt

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    So what do you refer to karate styles like Kyokushin, 55 years old; very different than Okinawa styles; and with kumite, not kata, at its core? Hopefully not "fake karate"?
     
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  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You lost me entirely in the first paragraph.
     
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  16. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Maybe, maybe not is the simplest answer I can come up with. I do think I get what you are trying to say.

    There are/were tools used that simply do not fit the modern world. An example, when I was young (single digit) we still broke our 10 acre garden with a single harrow plow and horse. It was a MAJOR PITA and this was 40 plus years ago. (I don't know how the Amish still do it at large but I respect the hell out of them for doing it). What used to take 2 days can be done in about 3 hours now. So progression in all things is good as long as the MERITS of the past are withheld.

    If I hate bananas and never have to eat them again, that is not a bad thing. Conversely, if I love chocolate to the point I over eat chocolate, that IS a bad thing. Same is true for anything.

    ***Again: I hope no one takes this as bashing history. I love reading about it. We can learn just as much from our bad past as our good. Maybe more.
     
  17. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Green Belt

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    Mas Oyama, Kyokushin creator, got his 4th degree in Okinawan Shotokan and studied with Gichin Funakoshi, whom he referred to as his true teacher. He further stated that of all the things he learned from him, KATA WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT. (according to www.historyoffighting.com) To be fair, maybe he meant that was the only worthwhile thing he learned from Funakoshi?

    He also studied Goju with Yamaguchi for a number of years. From what I have read, he did incorporate traditional katas from both these systems into his Kyokushin style. Since his fame centered on his fighting ability, this was what was highlighted and promoted as his full contact tournaments became popular. But after he died, several senior students claimed mastership and the style fragmented.

    Since these "youngbloods" were geared to the competitive fighting aspect of the style, and their claim to fame, it is natural that kata took a back seat. Another generation of students will most likely see their kata disappear, leaving Kyokushin as a purely competitive (and no doubt effective) fighting art, but not a complete karate style in the usual sense - more of a separate category.
     
  18. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I’ve been on the road for a bit and and just now started a two week holiday in New England. But when I get back I want to answer in detail the last two questions in your OP.

    In the meantime I hope everyone is well and safely training hard.

    And now there’s this fancy Italian eatery that’s just calling my name......
     
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  19. Mitlov

    Mitlov Blue Belt

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    Not in standardized styles like JKA Shotokan and Kukkiwon TKD. There's individual quality of performance, but it's still the same form. Like how two people can sing the national anthem and it doesn't sound identical, but they're singing the same song.
     
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  20. Mitlov

    Mitlov Blue Belt

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    That's how I read it. The most important part of what he learned from Funakoshi, not the most important component of Kyokushin training.
     

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