The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Alan Smithee, Nov 22, 2019.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,621
    Likes Received:
    6,658
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I don't know. I've seen some pretty startling recoveries in Judo matches. 30 degrees is pretty far, but I'd have to see where their feet are and the distribution of weight.
     
  2. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    2,975
    Likes Received:
    893
    Trophy Points:
    213
    No. But 'personal experience' is often just a longer way to say 'belief'.

    This is why anecdote is worthless, because people can believe a lot of nonsense.
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,621
    Likes Received:
    6,658
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    That’s a handy way to dismiss the experience of those who’ve actually needed their MA training outside of competition.
     
  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    8,134
    Likes Received:
    2,050
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    You should be able to test this against your training partner and draw your own conclusion.

    I don't have a clip or that. But here is a foot sweep against foot sweep (symmetry). To use pull guard to against pull guard is the same concept. The key is the timing.

     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,621
    Likes Received:
    6,658
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Tomoe nage isn’t the same as pulling guard, though I suspect there are some shared principles of set-up. I’ve used tomoe nage several times. It was always a surprise to the recipient, and left no room for foot-lifting in the moment.
     
  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    8,134
    Likes Received:
    2,050
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Do you also train how to counter tomoe nage?

    I'm very interested to test how to use a technique to counter itself. One time my opponent threw a jab and I also threw jab. Believe it or not, our fists meet together. I didn't know that could truly happen. It happened.

    When you try to use your right leg to inner hook my left leg, I can use my right leg to knee lift your right leg. I then use my right leg to inner hook your left leg. Another example of to use inner hook to against inner hook.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  7. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2019
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Believe it or not, more takedowns are allowed in BJJ than Judo. Leg takedowns with the hand or arms are banned in Judo since 2010. The next generation of Olympic Judokas won't know anything about them (training for their rule set to win Gold) unless they crosstrain or are in an old school dojo.
     
  8. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    8,134
    Likes Received:
    2,050
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Not only arm on the leg throw, even leg on leg throw such as the "leg twisting" throw had been banned by Judo long before that.

     
  9. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,398
    Likes Received:
    2,196
    Trophy Points:
    263
    My response is going to be kind of long because sometimes the simple answer I give get taken out of context by some of the jokers in this group. So I'm trying to add some context to it.

    So for A I'm going to make the following assumptions.
    1.The system has a minimum of foundation of basic function. Meaning you have to have something in the system that can be made functional if it's not already functional. This is not a functional fighting system here, but you can do some fine tuning and fixing structure and you'll have some solid stuff to work with. It sounds crazy, but when you look at their structure for throwing punching it's a lot better that what we see from some of that TMA vs MMA stuff from China. Stick a pad in front of these people, make some minor corrections and you'll have a nice little workout for building punching foundations and footwork foundations.


    So my assumption is that the system has the bare minimum structure in which function can be built in some sort of shape or form,

    2. The system must have some techniques that will look similar to techniques or mechanics found in other systems. No matter what we do, we are al limited by the mechanics of the human body. 2 arms 2 legs a spine and a head. There's only so many variations of body mechanics that are available before things start looking the same or similar. If the system is totally unique in everything, then there is a 99% chance that it not real. It's like walking, there's a specific structure that must be maintained for efficient walking.
    This may seem silly as well, but it's very practical, which is why these animals walking looks familiar to us. We all operate within similar mechanics and structure.


    And some structures of punching and kicking is going to be more efficient than others, but the functional stuff will pretty much follow the same rules of body mechanics, structure and balance for animals with A head, 2 arms, 2 legs and a spine. Again, this is why we see jabs, sprawls, foot sweeps, single leg take down attempts, in foot work in this video.


    This is the sweep (screenshot from video above)
    upload_2019-11-27_20-42-53.png

    This is the single leg take-down attempt (screen shot from video above)
    upload_2019-11-27_20-44-41.png



    So above is the context of how I see martial arts. Now the short answers based on a system having the characteristics of what was stated above.
    .
    A) down to the actual techniques. - My thought is that a technique just needs to be functional and efficient which will determine it's effectiveness. People get beat downs from basic kicking and punching When it comes to more advanced techniques, these techniques are designed to exploit specific human mechanics, structure, and human behavior. The more a technique exploits these areas the more important the technique becomes. When you start exploiting specifics then the technique needs to be solid, as that technique is only designed for s specific timing and body position. You can't just "thow stuff on the wall and hope it sticks." This would be about 30% of what's required for using a technique. I've shown examples of fighting between animals that resembles some of the stuff we do in marital arts. Their stuff is functional and it doesn't look pretty like what we see in the movies. Looking fancy is not a requirement for something to be functional. Nor is it a good marker of functionality. Pretty forms do not make, Pretty fights.

    B) Down to the students phyche in a high pressure situation? This is 70% or maybe even higher at 90% depending on what type of technique you are trying to pull off. The more basic the technique the less it plays on your phyche and the less it will be affected by pressure. My guess is that it's because basics are what people are comfortable with doing and is something that we generally trust more than anything else. The more advance a technique is the more you have to trust that technique no matter if you think you are going to get pounded in the face for trying it. You have to trust it 100% without doubt. And you have understand when and in what position the technique is functional for you. Unfortunately the only way you can determine this is through trial and error.

    You literally have to trust the technique 100% even though you know that you will fail at using it the first 20 or 30 times. You have to believe 100% that the the problem isn't the technique but your understanding of it. This is a difficult thing to do, especially if you are doing hard sparring, which is why I don't try to learn new stuff during hard sparring sessions. It's better to make mistakes in light sparring sessions so that it doesn't play on your mind and corrupt your trust in what you are training in.


    Sorry I had to be wordy about it, I was just trying to kill some of the nonsense that I might get from others from what I post.
     
  10. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,398
    Likes Received:
    2,196
    Trophy Points:
    263
    In a self-defense situation I can't ever see my self turning my back to an attacker in a way what my face is pinned to the wall like that. If I was a bad guy and wanted to put someone in that position then I'm not thinking about pinning them. I'm thinking about ramming their head into the wall, or crashing their bodies into the wall. Me using the wall to help inflict pain.

    I don't know what I would learn for it, other than I failed at preventing myself from being put in such a vulnerable position. What happened to always faces your opponent or attacker? I tried to find video footage of real attacks and I couldn't find one where the person was facing the wall and pressed against it. I'm going go out on a limb and that that something like that is probably hard to do most people will quickly turn to face the attacker or crumble to the ground. Unless they are trying to learn how to fight against an arrest, I don't see how that would help. They would have been better of putting her in the corner and have her fight her way out of the corner.


    Let me know what one would learn from such a position other than. "I shouldn't have turned my back" lol.
     
  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,398
    Likes Received:
    2,196
    Trophy Points:
    263
    ha ha ha.. totally unexpected.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,398
    Likes Received:
    2,196
    Trophy Points:
    263
    That's how you know you got something right. I like that feeling. Then I look at the video and the video doesn't look like what I felt lol.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,398
    Likes Received:
    2,196
    Trophy Points:
    263
    This doesn't make sense to me.

    How do you separate what you do, to the point where it's not a personal experience.?
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,621
    Likes Received:
    6,658
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Of course I train to counter. The counter is different at each stage (during entry, control, execution, and follow-up).
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,621
    Likes Received:
    6,658
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    You say “believe it or not” as if that should be surprising. To anyone passingly familiar with the topic, it is not.

    Those training solely for Judo competition (rather than those training Judo more roundly) will have more gaps. This is true of any system.
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,621
    Likes Received:
    6,658
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    For starters, I don’t assume I get to decide where and how the attack starts. We do part of our training under the assumption that our awareness may fail us. So, having some guy shove you against a wall from behind to start the fight seems advantageous for that guy.
    And, as I said before, some of what you learn is just how to deal with restrictions. Say some guy tries to bash your head as you said. If you manage to control that, you’re still at a wall with him behind you. It’s a drill that forces you to work differently than if you’re in an open area, similar to drills where you have to do your best while staying inside a small box (taped on the floor).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    2,975
    Likes Received:
    893
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Only when it's equally handy that there is no external evidence outside of story time to support ANY premise, not just as it relates to this.

    It's called reasonable standards of evidence.
     
  18. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    2,975
    Likes Received:
    893
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Sigh.

    Ignoring that red herring question, I'll ask you one;

    If I told you I just got back from a weekend on Mars , but I don't have anything but my word, and you have video evidence, from 30 different angles, that I was at home posting on martial talk the whole weekend.

    Would you believe it?
     
  19. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,177
    Likes Received:
    740
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Unfortunately it's very hard to practice Judo holistically because a lot of dojos don't want their students getting "bad habits" that won't help them in competition. The latest round of rules I've seen in Judo competition are legitimately insane and really serve no purpose except to stop wrestlers and BJJ guys from participating.

    Judo clubs live and die by their connections to comps and governing bodies, and there's quite a few black belts (especially in the states) who have nowhere to go as Judo clubs close their doors. I'm seeing a lot of Judo guys migrating over to Bjj to teach, compete, and become black belts, and just like wrestling, BJJ welcomes Judo guys with open arms. Judo's loss is Bjj's gain.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2019
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    18
    The vast majority of Judo schools are sport schools123
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page