The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Alan Smithee, Nov 22, 2019.

  1. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If a technique has gone through the developing stage, and also has gone through the testing stage, that technique should work. If one has tried his technique over 10,000 times on the mat and it still doesn't work, he should have modified that technique to make it work long time ago.

    Any defect in Window 1 should be fixed in Window 10 already.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
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  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I heard the phrase "I do Aikido" so I guess that's in his tool box. You'll hear him say it around the 5:45 mark
     
  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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  4. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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  5. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That’s Dan “the Wolfman” Theodore, a BJJ black belt who is on a bit of a crusade to show that certain traditional techniques like the standing wrist locks from Aikido can work. He will be the first to tell you that in order to make them work you need solid grappling/wrestling skills and plenty of live sparring experience.
     
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  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    And I think that conceptually the locks trained from a bjj wrestling base are almost completely different.

    Different timing different set ups and different technique.
     
  7. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    All due respect to Wolfman, but every video I see him in, he's using those "Aikido" techniques on people much smaller and less experienced than him.

    I find the second video much more interesting, because you had two people of about equal size and experience, with an Aikidoka instructor who could do next to nothing against a trained MMA fighter.
     
  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I could tell he has a passion for it. He enjoys the journey of learning and understanding the techniques he uses. It's people like him that TMA's need more of. Someone who is willing to go beyond what is just taught. Someone who has the passion to understand something through actually trying to use it and understand it. He wouldn't be as good as he is had he just bought into the talk that Aikido is useless and written it off.

    I don't know if Aikido practitioners have the same problem that I had with Kung Fu, but for me TMA is alway taught from a defense perspective where "attacker is always attacking first". For me this hyper defensive focus made it really difficult for me to learn Jow Ga. It wasn't until I started to train from an offensive perspective that things began to click. I didn't see a lot of what I see now because I was always trying to counter and react.. It's easier for me to do kung fu when my opponent reacts to me. In general, I think it's easier to know my opponent will react to me than for me to figure out what he's going to do based on how I react to him.

    Aikido is always shown as someone attacking the practitioner and in general I think that's just the incorrect mindset for trying to be successful with TMA in general. I think that what you are seeing is this perspective change which will give the techniques a different look based on how we usually see it in demos
     
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  9. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Here's my thinking about this. If I'm training to beat someone with Jow Ga kung fu then my experience always needs to be more than who I'm fighting. It doesn't mean that who I'm sparring with sucks, it just means that I should always be training to be more experienced than who I may fight.

    I'm not sure why I would get into a fight with someone who has more experience than me and still think I can win. I may do it for sparring because I can learn, but my training and purpose should always be. "To be better and more experienced than my opponent." If you and I were to set up a sparring match. I would train so that this statement would be true when we meet. Then when someone says. "well you had more experience than the other person". I'll just smile and reply. "Yes I do. The other person should have trained harder." If I did BJJ competitively without training BJJ then that statement would be true for my opponent, but my lower skills doesn't invalidate his better skills.

    Size difference. I don't know how many times I've seen BJJ practitioners take down people who are bigger and no one ever complains about the size difference there.
    Then you have videos like this. Where one person is clearly larger.


    Same thing here. Against a bigger person You can say that the Bigger person did well because he was bigger, but he still got tossed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Agree with you 100% there. If you attack me. I then respond to your attack. It's very easy for me to fall into your trap. This can be a weakness for all SD type of training.

    My training focus on I attack my opponent first when he has boxing guard. So the 1st thing that I need is to pull his boxing guard apart.

    If my opponent attacks me first, I prefer to use my kick to control the distance. I may jump back if I need to. I then jump back in and attack. IMO, this is the only way that I can make the fight "simple".

    For example, when I drag my opponent's leading arm and run in circle, if he is not familiar with that game, that will be my advantage.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
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  11. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Since the definition of "hillbilly" is 'an unsophisticated mountain person from the Appalachians' that's not possible. I live in the wrong part of the country.
    In fact, the people I've used these techniques on run the gamut from homeless to wealthy. Uneducated to extremely well educated.
    The simple fact is that these techniques do work. Not 100% of the time, because nothing is 100%. But claiming they don't work at all is just silly.
     
  12. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    My point is that if your goal is to show me that those Aikido techniques are effective, then I need to see it being used on someone that you don't outweigh by almost 100 lbs, and/or is your student or training dummy. I tend to expect a Bjj blackbelt to overwhelm a Bjj Blue belt, especially when that Bjj black belt has a size advantage. When you have a size and skill advantage to that extent, then your message is lost because someone with that advantage can make anything look dominant or effective. Show me a skinny, unassuming guy tossing around big guys like Steven Segal does, then I'll be interested.

    When Royce Gracie won the UFC it sent shockwaves through the MA community mainly because Gracie was smaller than the majority of people he fought, yet he still dominated them through sheer skill. If Gracie was a big hulking guy who imposed his will on other fighters, the impact wouldn't have been so great.
     
  13. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Always moving the goal post. People show how things work and then it's move the goal post..

    Royce Won a lot of his fights because he was more skilled at the type of grappling he was doing.He also has a strong grip that's not easily broken. People were not used to nor did they know how to deal with what he was doing. This goes back to what I was saying about having more experience. Royce made other's play his game instead of him trying to beat others at their own game. This goes back to what Wang and I were talking about Attacking vs Reacting. Attacking forces your opponent to play your game, Reacting means you are always playing someone else's game. I'm also pretty sure that Royce Gracie didn't have a weak grip which goes back to what Wang, Tony, GPSeymourand and I were saying about training grip strength. TMA grip strength training should give one an idea of what type of grip strength is needed.

    You are the first person I've ever heard that makes a skinny person the point of proof instead of a well trained person being the point of proof. A skinny person without grip strength and technique will fail because he or she is skinny without out strength and technique.

    As far as Gracie being remarkable, he brought something into fighting that most people didn't know what to do with. Most people were unfamiliar with BJJ. Now that's changed and it's not as easy to pull off Royce Gracie dominance like he did back then. Striking, countering takedowns, and escaping BJJ techniques has improved compared to when Royce was dominating.
     
  14. Gweilo

    Gweilo 2nd Black Belt

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    Bent arm, straight arm, just gives another option, straight arm, is suceptable to arm bar or a lever for more control, bent arm open to a reversal, or secondry move. In the video at the point he had control of the wrist, with the elbow bent, it would not have been my choice to try to apply pressure downwards, Personally I would have lifted the elbow upwards, and rammed a knee into the ribs, or lifted the elbow, taken the hand anti clockwise back under the arm, whilst moving myself anti clockwise, and remember that was a training vid in which the instructor paused to explain, in a SD situation, he would not have stopped moving, until his opponent was fully controlled/subdued or rolling around the floor calling for a medic.
     
  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    No. If that arm is locked with good posture you are not moving it by grabbing the wrist. Or grabbing the elbow or whatever.

    Which I assume was the point of ducking down then attacking the wrist. Because it opens the arm up a bit.

    But from there it is a dog fight to break that position.

    Otherwise saying oh well in a fight I am going to escalate doesn't exactly cut it either as a striking match from there is also a dog fight

    You might dish out shots. But you are going to eat shots as well.

    .
     
  16. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Uh, I'm not moving the goalpost. What I'm saying is that it's easy to make things work when you have a size and skill advantage over your partner. Such is the case with Wolfman in his videos.
     
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  17. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    Some of their Vale Tudo strategies are questionable on the streets though. They have a superior art for the mat but on concrete they would get slammed to oblivion. They even got slammed those fights stuck in guards but the effect wasn't as bad since it was in a sporting arena floor.
     
  18. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    What "strategies" are you talking about?

    If you're getting slammed while in Guard you've messed up a long time ago. You should never retain Guard if you're off the ground.
     
  19. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    Pulling guard and getting slammed, as Renzo did, and Rickson got slammed in the guard as well

     
  20. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Yeah in the ring. In self-defense we're taught not to retain the guard if your opponent regains their posture (standing up, or lifting you up in the air). There are plenty of easy and effective sweeps to pull off from that position instead of attempting to retain your guard.123
     

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