The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[dvcochran]

If you think Aikido is trolling then yes.

Yours seems to be just that.

 

[dvcochran]

For cryin out loud, there was a 3rd Dan Aikido black belt instructor with his own dojo who tried a joint twist in a BJJ contest while standing up and nothing happened, the dude just looked at him funny. It was hilarious to see. It did not cause anything

Some of you in depth Youtube training I assume.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Depends what you mean by 'it'. If you mean classical aikido(which is always a good example) then sure.

It works when your partner cooperates and knows all the dance steps.

Koshi-Nage (hip throw) is in "classical Aikido" and works against a resisting opponent.

 

[Hanzou]

BUT THAT'S JUST tautology, Nothing works at all if you don't have a physical and or skill advantage and always work best if you have both.

which is why people should train both skill and fitness to give them an advantage

I agree. I'm saying that if your goal is to prove effectiveness, you need to show your concepts working against bigger stronger opponents. Again, that's why UFC1 was so effective at changing the landscape of martial arts. No one is going to be impressed if you're a huge guy wrist locking a smaller guy.

 

[Hanzou]

Against high level wrestlers doesn't matter what you do. Imagine if kimura had lost by submission on the ground against Helio despite kimura throwing him around at will on mats before that, would that have proved GJJ superiority?

Um, we train against high level wrestlers in BJJ constantly. Hell, you go to any worthwhile BJJ academy in the US, you'll find the white and blue belt ranks full of ex- high school and collegiate wrestlers. Unlike Judo, Bjj doesn't ban wrestling techniques in practice, so Bjj has incorporated high level wrestling for decades now and it has made the art better overall because of it. From experience I will assure you that those sweeps work just fine against wrestlers high level or otherwise because they're not used to them.

 

[Martial D]

It is not a bold assertion at all. The surface makes a huge difference.

In this case it was your assertion that a BJJ guy could never sweep an equally skilled wrestler, that made me cup my face with my palm Picard style.

This tells me that not only do you not train in BJJ, but you also have not been exposed to very much grappling or MMA competition where this is a quite common occurrence.

 

[Alan Smithee]

I will assure you that those sweeps work just fine against wrestlers high level or otherwise because they're not used to them.

Matt Thornton said publicly in an interview that he doesn't believe he would be able to take down anyone in a competing wrestling club. Anyone.

But I guess your Gracie patented footsweeps are different..Most people who relay their experience transitioning from Wrestling to BJJ state that they cannot be taken down in any other way than guard pull.

 

[Martial D]

Koshi-Nage (hip throw) is in "classical Aikido" and works against a resisting opponent.

That the technique exists says nothing of setup, timing,or execution. A lot of the stuff in aikido could work if not done the aikido way(for instance wrist locks are viable from the ground.

The issue is that all of their training is cooperative and choreographed. Without live training, nothing will work, and once live training is added, the execution quickly moves away from aikido based movement because real opponents tend not to rush in hands down and throw themselves at the slightest contact.

 

[Hanzou]

Matt Thornton said publicly in an interview that he doesn't believe he would be able to take down anyone in a competing wrestling club. Anyone.

But I guess your Gracie patented footsweeps are different..Most people who relay their experience transitioning from Wrestling to BJJ state that they cannot be taken down in any other way than guard pull.

All due respect to Matt Thornton, but his opinion isn't supported by simple facts. If wrestlers couldn't be taken down by BJJ exponents, ex-wrestlers wouldn't flood into Bjj gyms or compete in Bjj competitions. They also wouldn't stay with Bjj long enough to become instructors, and high level BJJ practitioners themselves.

Again, your views here are what happens when you lack practical experience. In my time in Bjj I've actually grappled against high school and collegiate wrestlers. I know what's effective against a typical wrestler and what isn't. Wrestlers have EXCELLENT top game, and exert amazing pressure in dominant positions, but they're completely lost when they're in an inferior position, and that makes them highly vulnerable to submissions.

I will admit that you are correct that guard pulling is quite effective against wrestlers, but guard pulling IS a legitimate takedown anyway, so I'm not exactly understanding why you mention guard pulling in such disparaging terms. I know that in some grappling circles, whiney babies view guard pulling as "cheating", but if it works it works.

 

[Martial D]

Matt Thornton said publicly in an interview that he doesn't believe he would be able to take down anyone in a competing wrestling club. Anyone.

But I guess your Gracie patented footsweeps are different..Most people who relay their experience transitioning from Wrestling to BJJ state that they cannot be taken down in any other way than guard pull.

LOL

You don't even know what a sweep is in BJJ.

Gtfo

Hint: it isn't a takedown

 

[Alan Smithee]

All due respect to Matt Thornton, but his opinion isn't supported by simple facts. If wrestlers couldn't be taken down by BJJ exponents, ex-wrestlers wouldn't flood into Bjj gyms or compete in Bjj competitions. They also wouldn't stay with Bjj long enough to become instructors, and high level BJJ practitioners themselves.

Again, your views here are what happens when you lack practical experience. In my time in Bjj I've actually grappled against high school and collegiate wrestlers. I know what's effective against a typical wrestler and what isn't. I will admit that you are correct that guard pulling is quite effective against wrestlers, but guard pulling IS a legitimate takedown anyway, so I'm not exactly understanding why you mention guard pulling in such disparaging terms. I know that in some grappling circles, whiney babies view guard pulling as "cheating", but if it works it works.

I did not use pulling guard in a disparaging way. I reliably beats both judoka and wrestling purists on the mat in "freestyle grappling rules". On the streets it is much much riskier to d however and has resulted in concussed jiujitsu guys against even non wrestlers...

 

[Alan Smithee]

LOL

You don't even know what a sweep is in BJJ.

Gtfo

Hint: it isn't a takedown

The discussion was from the standing position.

 

[Alan Smithee]

If wrestlers couldn't be taken down by BJJ exponents, ex-wrestlers wouldn't flood into Bjj gyms or compete in Bjj competitions. They also wouldn't stay with Bjj long enough to become instructors, and high level BJJ practitioners themselves.
.

What? You think they take BJJ to get better at takedowns? They take it to master ground submissions.

 

[Hanzou]

I did not use pulling guard in a disparaging way. I reliably beats both judoka and wrestling purists on the mat in "freestyle grappling rules". On the streets it is much much riskier to d however and has resulted in concussed jiujitsu guys against even non wrestlers...

"On da streetz" the chances of you running across a highly skilled Judoka or wrestler is slim to zero. However, the Guard isn't there just for offense, it's there for defense as well. In other words, when YOU get taken down and someone is on top of you, you can use the guard to get out of getting your face caved in.

 

[Martial D]

I did not use pulling guard in a disparaging way. I reliably beats both judoka and wrestling purists on the mat in "freestyle grappling rules". On the streets it is much much riskier to d however and has resulted in concussed jiujitsu guys against even non wrestlers...

Actually pulling guard is really risky and low percentage outside of pure BJJ comp. You should really go train for a year and gain SOME level of understanding before posting here. Really.

 

[jobo]

I agree. I'm saying that if your goal is to prove effectiveness, you need to show your concepts working against bigger stronger opponents. Again, that's why UFC1 was so effective at changing the landscape of martial arts. No one is going to be impressed if you're a huge guy wrist locking a smaller guy.

but your using size and strength as if they are synonymous and there aren't, the strongest person tends to be the one with the best strength training program, irrespective of their physical size

Now some people are undoubtedly BIG and strong, but i know a fair number of people who are big and relatively weak, So you cant look at two people and make an accurate prediction the biggest is strongest. Therefore putting the little guy in a wrist lock may indeed be very impressive

 

[Martial D]

The discussion was from the standing position.

That would be a takedown then, not a sweep.

At least learn the correct terms before you attempt to play at being an instant expert.

 

[Hanzou]

but your using size and strength as if they are synonymous and there aren't, the strongest person tends to be the one with the best strength training program, irrespective of their physical size

Now some people are undoubtedly BIG and strong, but you cant look at two people and make an accurate prediction the biggest is strongest. so putting the little guy in a wrist lock may indeed be very impressive

Eh, I was talking about Dan the Wolfman who is both stronger and more skilled than the people he grapples with in his videos. I think he'd be better served getting one of his scrawney students and having that student using those Aikido methods on bigger and stronger grapplers.

 

[Alan Smithee]

"On da streetz" the chances of you running across a highly skilled Judoka or wrestler is slim to zero. However, the Guard isn't there just for offense, it's there for defense as well. In other words, when YOU get taken down and someone is on top of you, you can use the guard to get out of getting your face caved in.

Back again to the original post... The Gracie challenges set out to prove the most effective style, but they only did so on a mat. A wrestler with any good sense will focus on slamming in a street altercation against a BJJ practitioner and this is a perfectly good equalizer, to put it mildly.

 

[Hanzou]

The discussion was from the standing position.

The discussion (you started) was someone getting slammed while in Guard. I countered that a Bjj person worth their salt on "da streetz" would know to release their Guard when they've lost posture control of their opponent.