The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[Gerry Seymour]

Why do you think they affiliate with different styles and organization if it's not uniform? Clearly that is the case. Show me an Akikai affiliation with real sparring. You don't know what you are talking about.

Clearly, you've never been part of an organization of any size. Uniformity occurs at a fairly high level. What happens in a school is pretty variable. That has been my experience with literally every art I've come in contact with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is no resistance, it's a predetermined grab and flip.

Obvious troll statement.

 

[Bruce7]

How is that even possible? You never apply techniques with resistance from your partner. It's all choreographed.

Do advanced students spar?
My teachers sparred with each other and there was no choreographing. They were trying to best one another.
My teachers enjoyed sparing with me after class to home their skills against striking arts.
I guess when you have perfected your art to a certain level, you enjoy test your skill against a different art to further perfect your art.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Do advanced students spar?
My teachers sparred with each other and there was no choreographing. They were trying to best one another.
My teachers enjoyed sparing with me after class to home their skills against striking arts.
I guess when you have perfected your art to a certain level, you enjoy test your skill against a different art to further perfect your art.

Since they apparently indoctrinate their students into believing that you have to follow along or else your arm breaks or is injured, there is a built in protection against any questioning or testing of any kind.

So I ask again, under those circumstances, how could you possible hone your grappling technique?

 

[Alan Smithee]

Obvious troll statement.

If you think Aikido is trolling then yes.

 

[Bruce7]

Since they apparently indoctrinate their students into believing that you have to follow along or else your arm breaks or is injured, there is a built in protection against any questioning or testing of any kind.

So I ask again, under those circumstances, how could you possible hone your grappling technique?

I think I understand your point.
I hope you don't take this as rude, but maybe you should find a different teacher.
I was only taught in the begin not to resist so the other student could learn the technique.
As the other student progress, you would make it hard for him to get a lock and we were taught counter moves to a the lock.
If I was on the ground in a solid lock, I would not resist. Yes, I would have to give in order not to be damaged.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You never apply techniques with resistance from your partner. It's all choreographed.

1. During the "skill development" stage, you are not suppose to resist. This is true for all MA system.
2. Your partner only resists during the "counter training" stage,
3. or the "combo training" stage.
4. You then go into "testing" stage.

Whether Aikido training has all 4 stages, that's different issue.

Let's take the "hip throw" for example.

1. "skill development" stage.

2. "counter training" stage,

3. "combo training" stage.

4. "testing" stage (Hip throw defense has been applied at 0.15. Hip throw offense has been applied at 0.19).

 

[drop bear]

By the way from someone who does go for dangerous locks. I slow them down in sparring so that if someone does resist in a way I think they are going to break something I can let it go and transition to something else.

The training that requires your uke to just collapse isn't very productive for anyone to be honest.

So I can see what OP is kind of trying to get at. As it is a pretty common phenomenon in martial arts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if someone does resist in a way ...

Not sure if Aikido has anything like this. Does anybody know?

How can you have any fun if you train a throwing art and you don't go through this? It doesn't matter if you have repeated your partner training drill over 10,000 times. If you can't execute your technique while your opponent resists fully, you still don't have that technique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I slow them down in sparring so that if someone does resist in a way I think they are going to break something I can let it go and transition to something else.

This statement says it all.. could have saved 13 pages of explaining lol. People who know that joint locks work understand this. That fear that your sparring partner may move in the wrong way and break their own joint because of it. I remember when I would train teen how to use joint locks and I would demo on them so they could experience it. An there's always that one teen that wants to go against the grain where if I don't release the lock then the kid would sure hurt himself. And it would always end the same way with the kids saying. "It doesn't work" and me replying to the kid that he was about to dislocate his own shoulder trying to counter the wrong way.

It's sort of like how some people aren't smart enough to tap out in BJJ so if you don't let go of certain locks the idiot will surly break their own arm.

The truth about a lot of joint locks is that it's the resistance that will F you up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The truth about a lot of joint locks is that it's the resistance that will F you up.

My wife had to go to EM because she refused to tap out in a ground game arm bar.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Of course, she's your student!

Well, no. I don't recommend resisting if she arrests you because I've treated people in the ED who DID resist her.

The initial grab is not painful.

Nope. It's not painful when I grab you. It IS painful when I twist the joint.
Or are you saying that hundreds of people over the last 35 years chose to comply even though it didn't hurt?

 

[JowGaWolf]

My wife had to go to EM because she refused to tap out in a ground game arm bar.

Sorry to hear she let it go that far. Unfortunately there's no gradual "give way" to a joint failing or bone breaking.. There's the resistance and then, the snap. Most aren't going to know what it feels like right before before the bone or joint fails. Best example of this is when arm wrestlers break their arms. Everything looks fine.... then snap. something breaks.

My personal thought it that chokes and joint locks aren't submission techniques. Chokes are made to incapacitate and joint locks are made to destroy. Tapping out just signals to your opponent that one of the two is about to happen, If people think of it as submission then they ignore this fact and it becomes more of an ego thing. "At least I didn't give in" type drive.

Good video on joint locks. He talks about resisting vs flowing. This might be useful to the OP in gaining a better understanding of why people "comply" with a joint lock. I know when police officers often break arms because people resist. Comply and put your hands behind your back vs resisting

 

[Alan Smithee]

Nope. It's not painful when I grab you. It IS painful when I twist the joint.
Or are you saying that hundreds of people over the last 35 years chose to comply even though it didn't hurt?

For cryin out loud, there was a 3rd Dan Aikido black belt instructor with his own dojo who tried a joint twist in a BJJ contest while standing up and nothing happened, the dude just looked at him funny. It was hilarious to see. It did not cause anything

 

[Dirty Dog]

For cryin out loud, there was a 3rd Dan Aikido black belt instructor with his own dojo who tried a joint twist in a BJJ contest while standing up and nothing happened, the dude just looked at him funny. It was hilarious to see. It did not cause anything

So what? Nothing is 100%. The fact remains that I have used these techniques reliably for many years, in literally hundred on confrontations, with excellent success.

 

[Alan Smithee]

So what? Nothing is 100%. The fact remains that I have used these techniques reliably for many years, in literally hundred on confrontations, with excellent success.

Oh common. Just admit you used it on hillbillies who believe the same nonsense you do.

 

[Martial D]

If you devote a good portion of your life to something that turns out in the end to be bullcrap, you are unlikely to ever admit it, even to yourself.

This is exponentially more true if your paycheck depends on it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

By the way from someone who does go for dangerous locks. I slow them down in sparring so that if someone does resist in a way I think they are going to break something I can let it go and transition to something else.

The training that requires your uke to just collapse isn't very productive for anyone to be honest.

So I can see what OP is kind of trying to get at. As it is a pretty common phenomenon in martial arts.

Yeah, this is where I take issue with how much of this is done in much of Aikido. I think it's a useful practice so you can practice the movement at full speed (I see it as analogous to a lightweight "heavy" bag for striking). But if it's used too much (especially if it's the ONLY drill approach used), you get a false sense of what will work. At the very least, a skilled partner should be able to say, "I took that fall just in case, but it didn't feel like you really had the lock." Not ideal, but at least better than never getting any feedback. I favor beginners taking the escape a bit early, and more advanced folks waiting to feel out the technique's effect first.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not sure if Aikido has anything like this. Does anybody know?

How can you have any fun if you train a throwing art and you don't go through this? It doesn't matter if you have repeated your partner training drill over 10,000 times. If you can't execute your technique while your opponent resists fully, you still don't have that technique.

I think asking if "Aikido" has something is problematic. Some schools will have full resistance, some won't.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My wife had to go to EM because she refused to tap out in a ground game arm bar.

I had a training partner who broke a hand when he didn't tap out on a wrist lock (another mid-range student applying it). Same lock had the same effect when one of my instructors was doing some police training and one of the cadets decided to suddenly resist and ignore the pain.