The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[jobo]

Uh, I'm not moving the goalpost. What I'm saying is that it's easy to make things work when you have a size and skill advantage over your partner. Such is the case with Wolfman in his videos.

BUT THAT'S JUST tautology, Nothing works at all if you don't have a physical and or skill advantage and always work best if you have both.

which is why people should train both skill and fitness to give them an advantage

 

[Alan Smithee]

Yeah in the ring. In self-defense we're taught not to retain the guard if your opponent regains their posture (standing up, or lifting you up in the air). There are plenty of easy and effective sweeps to pull off from that position instead of attempting to retain your guard.

Against high level wrestlers doesn't matter what you do. Imagine if kimura had lost by submission on the ground against Helio despite kimura throwing him around at will on mats before that, would that have proved GJJ superiority?

 

[jobo]

Against high level wrestlers doesn't matter what you do. Imagine if kimura had lost by submission on the ground against Helio despite kimura throwing him around at will on mats before that, would that have proved GJJ superiority?

yes against high level wrestlers it doesn't matter what you do, but fortunately high level wrestlers tend to fight other high level wrestlers so it doesn't come up very often as an issue

 

[Alan Smithee]

yes against high level wrestlers it doesn't matter what you do, but fortunately high level wrestlers tend to fight other high level wrestlers so it doesn't come up very often as an issue

All it takes is a good high school or college wrestler. They will not be able to sweep him.

 

[jobo]

All it takes is a good high school or college wrestler. They will not be able to sweep him.

who wont ? i wont, you wont, but who is the THEY you are referring to ?

id put my money on one of the graces against a high school wrestler ?

So WHO wont be able to sweep a high school wrestler ?

 

[Alan Smithee]

who wont ? i wont, you wont, but who is the THEY you are referring to ?

id put my money on one of the graces against a high school wrestler ?

Please follow the discussion if you want to participate. A BJJ expert of any kind will not be able to sweep an equally skilled wrestler, and pulling guard which is very effective on the mat, will likely lead to disaster in a real fight on concrete. Hence they are out of options

 

[jobo]

Please follow the discussion if you want to participate. A BJJ expert of any kind will not be able to sweep an equally skilled wrestler, and pulling guard which is very effective on the mat, will likely lead to disaster in a real fight on concrete. Hence they are out of options

But you said high school wrestler ?

Now your saying equally skilled, No a BBJ guy will not be able to sweep an equally skilled grapplers, either a wrestler or another BJJ guy

That just obvious, A boxer cant beat an equally skilled boxer and a wight lifter cant out lift someone who is equally strong

I could go on, But equal skill tends to end in a draw or at least a subjective points decision

 

[Martial D]

The only thing I can say is that maybe someone who knows how to apply it will post video on Youtube. My perspective comes from my own experience of what I see vs what may be out there. How many people have we seen spar and actually use Jow Ga techniques? So when it comes to Aikido, I'm thinking the same thing. There may be others out there who just haven't posted a video of them sparring.

I like this one. But unfortunately I don't know enough about Aikido to know if that's what he was doing.

if he's actually using it Aikido (in the video above, then that video gives a much different perspective than the video below.

The only thing I'm sure about is that Joint locks works, and how it's applied is going to determine reliability. I don't think it's a bunch of made up Joint locks and arm twists. I also believe that it's going to be rare to find someone passionate enough to actually learn how to be functional with the system. Most people rather mix and match systems, which is nothing wrong with doing that. It's just that doing so, may cause a person to give up on the applications of the system instead of trying to figure it out.

Frankly, the excuse that 'sure, it seems like it doesn't work at all based on 100% of the evidence available BUT surely their are hidden masters lurking in the darkness laughing at us from their secret dojos somewhere' is well past it's due date.

 

[Martial D]

Please follow the discussion if you want to participate. A BJJ expert of any kind will not be able to sweep an equally skilled wrestler, and pulling guard which is very effective on the mat, will likely lead to disaster in a real fight on concrete. Hence they are out of options

This tells me you have not trained even a day of BJJ.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That just obvious, A boxer cant beat an equally skilled boxer and a wight lifter cant out lift someone who is equally strong

Well..... you're assuming none of these people ever make a mistake. Which is simply not true. If those two equally skilled people go at it long enough, it's a virtual certainty that one of them will eventually make a mistake. And then BOOM.
You cannot really predict which of two equally skilled opponents will make that mistake, but it's pretty much inevitable that one will, eventually.
I agree with the point you're making (although I doubt young Alan will grasp it), but it's important to remember that "equal skill" doesn't equal "both totally perfect".

 

[jobo]

Frankly, the excuse that 'sure, it seems like it doesn't work at all based on 100% of the evidence available BUT surely their are hidden masters lurking in the darkness laughing at us from their secret dojos somewhere' is well past it's due date.

you dont think it will work at all ever under any circumstances ?

 

[Alan Smithee]

This tells me you have not trained even a day of BJJ.

Do you actually have an argument?

 

[jobo]

Well..... you're assuming none of these people ever make a mistake. Which is simply not true. If those two equally skilled people go at it long enough, it's a virtual certainty that one of them will eventually make a mistake. And then BOOM.
You cannot really predict which of two equally skilled opponents will make that mistake, but it's pretty much inevitable that one will, eventually.
I agree with the point you're making (although I doubt young Alan will grasp it), but it's important to remember that "equal skill" doesn't equal "both totally perfect".

if he makes a mistake he clearly isn't equally skilled, not making mistakes is part of the skill set, dont make any big mistakes and its down to the judges

 

[Alan Smithee]

That just obvious, A boxer cant beat an equally skilled boxer and a wight lifter cant out lift someone who is equally strong

n

You are comparing athletes from the same art/sport!!! BJJ and wrestling are different arts!

 

[Dirty Dog]

if he makes a mistake he clearly isn't equally skilled, not making mistakes is part of the skill set

Really? You know someone who never makes the slightest mistake?
I'm going to call BS on that one.

 

[Martial D]

If a technique has gone through the developing stage, and also has gone through the testing stage, that technique should work. If one has tried his technique over 10,000 times on the mat and it still doesn't work, he should have modified that technique to make it work long time ago.

Any defect in Window 1 should be fixed in Window 10 already.

And if any kind of live testing is not only not part of the process, but is highly discouraged? This is the case in many 'martial' arts clubs across the lands.

Ie, window one is often the beginning and the end.

 

[jobo]

Really? You know someone who never makes the slightest mistake?
I'm going to call BS on that one.

I didnt say I knew anyone who has never made a mistake.

Ive seen plenty of people play competitions at all sorts of sports who haven't made a mistake for the duration of the contest, they possibly forget their wife's birthday the next day, so not with out error

 

[Martial D]

you dont think it will work at all ever under any circumstances ?

Depends what you mean by 'it'. If you mean classical aikido(which is always a good example) then sure.

It works when your partner cooperates and knows all the dance steps.

 

[Martial D]

Do you actually have an argument?

Your bald assertions do not warrant a counter argument, as they are not themselves an argument.

You have exposed yourself as a layman ten times over in this thread alone.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Your bald assertions do not warrant a counter argument, as they are not themselves an argument.

You have exposed yourself as a layman ten times over in this thread alone.

It is not a bold assertion at all. The surface makes a huge difference.