Tanemura & Hatsumi

Gary Arthur

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Troy Wideman posted

You are welcome to speculate but you have not seen the scrolls as I have not.

Your right I havent, BUT if what is claimed about the Amatsu Tarara is true i.e that

1/ The age of the Amatsu Tatara is the oldest document in Japan by far. If this was the case the Kamiyo Moji Script would be older than the writings found in the Kojiki i.e 620 AD rather than 700 BC.

2/ The distance traveled by King Mima from Babylon in a time most sea going vessels tended to travel by following the coast rather than going to open sea and vast distances like from Babylon to Japan a distance of thousands of miles.

Both of these would overturn both the scientific and historical world. It would be like finding a book with the blue print of Stonehenge written in the Neolithic/Bronze age period. In fact it would overturn world history.

Instead we have a script (Kamiyo Moji) that many scholars say is a fake, we have a king List from Babylon that contains NO King Mima (See below) and we have no evidence to back up the claims of what Mr Tanemura and others claim.

Now I'm willing to accept what is written as a fable, myth or oral tradition, but the moment you start talking about it as fact then you need to back up your statements and that includes Mr Tanemura.

(Footnote. The Kojiki includes a mention of a Mimo O but it is 5th century AD not 6th century BC, and Mr Tanemura mentions Caldia as being in Babylon. Its not it was a state in Korea.)

Just remember what is science today, can be proven wrong tomorrow.

Oh dear, whenever I hear things like that i'm reminded of Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron.

The thing is that scientists and historians have a vast amount of evidence covering what we might call history. These include archaeological finds, dating methods, genetics, historical documents etc.

Yet what seems to be happening here with the Amatsu Tatara is that many of the claims go against held beliefs by most if not all scholars that work in this field.

So if you are making a claim i.e that the Amatsu tatara is thousands of years old and that king Mima O came from Babylon then its your teacher that needs to provide the evidence otherwise what he says is without merit.

And by the way saying...

"Just remember what is science today, can be proven wrong tomorrow"

Is a very weak argument and is that sort of argument that one would expect from creationists who try to disprove evolution and want a 6000 year old earth.

This whole Amatsu Tatara thing reminds me of the Turin Shroud. Yes people would love to believe that it was the shroud of Jesus Christ, but once you start examining the weave, colours, fabrics and dating then you get a date of 1300 AD and not the early 1st Century AD.

If you would have told someone 60 years ago that we would have had some of the technology we have today, they would have laughed at you.

Actually I disagree, I think people 60 years ago expected us to be living on Mars by now, but this comment just goes to show how powerful science is not how it can be proven wrong. So this comment by you is just agreeing that science is a very powerful tool to understanding.

Good luck in your searching because I doubt anyone even in the Genbukan can give you the answers other then the shihan or of course Tanemura Sensei.

Then I open this up to any Shihan that want to answer.

What is the evidence for the claims made about the Amatsu Tatara (See above)

Since you are not in the organization I doubt you will get the chance to ask your questions.

Oh I see its secret Knowledge available to only the few.

So even though this document/s would overturn science and history for the claims that are made of it, it is to stay a secret except for the few who dont happen to have access to carbon dating, or expertise in history or linguistics.

Isnt that just a little convenient.

Note: When I talk about No King Mima being in the Babylonian list I do not mean his name would be King Mima. This is not a Babylonian name but a Japanese Translation of a Korean Name. If one looks at the kojiki one will find many mentions of the word "Mima" including the land of Mima. Therefore it would be useful to have the name of King Mimas Babylonian name, which it appears we do not (Or neither Mr Tanemura or Dr Hatsumi have given us yet) but we dont have a Babylonian record of a King going missing at sea at least in that period.

Its possible that King Mima was King Mima Ki (Emperor Sujin) Emperor Sujin was a mystical mysterious figure much like King Arthur who invaded Japan but this would be 3rd 4th century AD and not BC.

Garth
 
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Troy Wideman

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HI Garth,

Whyyyyy are you so stuck on these scrollsss....Geez. I really couldn't care less. Let me give you an analogy.
I have a friend that is a devote christian, he is constantly speaking about faith and god. I have different views! However my friend is very good at real estate. Just because I don't believe in his belief does that mean that I can't learn from him about real estate? When I say you have animosity towards the organization, you do. You are constantly picking a topic that first off, no one on this forum can give you the answer you seek. Therefore you bring up statements that you can goooo ha huh, see, he is lying. What if it is based on his belief and faith. There are many people around the world that live on faith.

Now am I saying that this is the case for Tanemura Sensei, NO! As I said before, I do not know! If you want to ask me about Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu, I can speak with some authority. However, you also don't know the answer
Who is being more honest here. I am telling you as a higher rank that I do not know much about Amatsu Tatara. Therefore I am not going to agree or disagree. It really does not matter to me. If I get to a level and Tanemura Sensei, says you should learn more of this, then I might.

Now since I answered all kinds of questions..You still have not answered one of mine.

I am curious what happened with Toshindo and you. Why did you quit. I check some other posts and you spoke highly of the art and organization.

Again, I am done talking about Amatsu Tatara, its getting close to the constant arguments on Togakure Ninjutsu. All kinds of people stating things that shouldn't be.

Also, you will be waiting a long time for the shihan to answer you on the forum, they don't waist their time with them. You get into endless arguments and your time would be better spent training. Where I am actually heading at the moment.

Kind Regards,

Troy
 

Gary Arthur

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Troy Wideman posted

HI Garth,

Whyyyyy are you so stuck on these scrollsss....Geez. I really couldn't care less.

Well i could, and after all its your organisations that makes these claims as fact, and coming from a background of history and martial arts I am interested, hence why I have asked the question on numerous occasions.

Let me give you an analogy.
I have a friend that is a devote christian, he is constantly speaking about faith and god.

Faith and Fact based evidence are two different things.

Now if Tanemura said "I believe" then it would not be a problem. After all many people believe in alien abduction, Ghosts, mind reading, talking to the dead etc.

Personally i think they are wrong to do so, but its their belief. But the moment they say "These things are a fact" i'm going to issue that mantra...

"Wheres your evidence"

And as its your organisation that is putting out this information (It is on several websites) then surely the onus is on you (Your group) to give the evidence.

If they cant or they are unwilling to for whatever reason then they can hardly say "You have a grudge against the organisation" just because someone is asking a valid question.

However my friend is very good at real estate. Just because I don't believe in his belief does that mean that I can't learn from him about real estate?

Of course not. I have already stated that Mr Tanemuras techniques are second to none. Personally i have my doubts about the Togakure Ryu but it doesnt mean that I cant learn from whats taught.

Using your analogy of Christianity I can (As an atheist) find the bible to be a great book of work, I can enjoy listening to carols and hymns and can take inspiration from some of the stories, BUT as soon as someone tells me that the earth is 6000 years old, was created in 6 days and evolution is false i'm going to ask them to produce some kind of evidence for their claims.


When I say you have animosity towards the organization, you do.

See above. As I said I have asked a question, and you dont know me. Please dont judge.

You are constantly picking a topic that first off, no one on this forum can give you the answer you seek.

And why not?

Surely if you are studying a martial art thats based on the Amatsu tatara that is making certain claims then its of their interest to check those claims.

As Buddha once said (Or did he) "Take nothing as truth because it comes from authority, not even me"

Therefore you bring up statements that you can goooo ha huh, see, he is lying.

When have I said that Mr Tanemura is a liar?

What if it is based on his belief and faith. There are many people around the world that live on faith.

I agree (See above)

If I have a believe that the world is flat, that fine. its a belief. I'm not claiming it to be true.

But if (as a teacher) you are saying something as fact, then its should not be a surprise when someone askes for evidence of the claims.

Now am I saying that this is the case for Tanemura Sensei, NO! As I said before, I do not know! If you want to ask me about Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu, I can speak with some authority. However, you also don't know the answer

Thats why i am asking the question. Gee is it that difficult.

Let me make it easy for you.

Mr Tanemura makes a claim. I ask for the evidence.

Its not for me to disprove the claim, its always in the remit of the person making the claim to prove it.

Although i will say that some of what is written goes contrary to both historical and scientific evidence.

Who is being more honest here. I am telling you as a higher rank that I do not know much about Amatsu Tatara.

So why do you keep posting?

In my last post I opened the post to anyone that has an answer.

Therefore I am not going to agree or disagree. It really does not matter to me. If I get to a level and Tanemura Sensei, says you should learn more of this, then I might.

Thats fine, if your not interested, but you really shouldnt say someone has an agenda against your organisation just because they ask questions about some of the claims.

Now since I answered all kinds of questions..You still have not answered one of mine.

I am curious what happened with Toshindo and you. Why did you quit.

Personal reasons.

I check some other posts and you spoke highly of the art and organization.

And I still do. If Mr Hayes came to the Uk on a seminar i would go, and if I could I would attend a seminar with Mr Tanemura too.

I have no problem with the training that Mr Tanemura does, just some of the claims ( and he's not the only one of course)

Again, I am done talking about Amatsu Tatara, its getting close to the constant arguments on Togakure Ninjutsu. All kinds of people stating things that shouldn't be.

Nothing wrong in people asking awkward questions.

Also, you will be waiting a long time for the shihan to answer you on the forum, they don't waist their time with them. You get into endless arguments and your time would be better spent training.

So I suggest in the nicest possible way that we stop debating.

The question is open however if someone wants to answer my questions.

Regards Garth
 

jks9199

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Guys, let's remember that one of the rules here at MartialTalk is that we don't tolerate fraudbusting. As long as the conversation remains polite and respectful, and focused on facts, you're OK -- but it's kind of drifting over some thin ice...

So -- have at it, but let's stay within the rules so that we don't have to do anything more formal, OK?
 

Troy Wideman

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Hi Garth,

Nop, I am not interested in talking about it further. I wish you luck in your training. I hope we cross paths, so we can have that guiness, however, I doubt our paths will cross with the Genbukan.

Good luck in your search for a teacher.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman
 

Bruno@MT

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I am staying out of the Tanemura - Hatsumi discussion. However: starting all over, I would like to share my opinion about that.

Quite some time ago, I did western jujutsu (jiu-jitsu it was called). After 3 years of hard work I had san-kyu. then one day, a guy drops by with the same belt as I had. He dropped out several years before, and returned with the same rank.

He did not remember the majority of the locks properly, did not know the names, his techniques sucked bad, and he did not know what belonged in which belt level. At that moment, I made up my mind about this issue. If you start over, then you should start all over.

Genbukan is a very technical organization with a significant number of techniques per grade. If you've been away for a long time, what are the odds that you still remember all the techniques and names correctly? do you still know which fingers to use for hanno bon itsu gasho rei? Do you still know how to perform the tai sabaki for the hasso gyaku kesa giri attack and its name? Do you still remember the names for all the techniques you learned and how to perform them to the last detail, for every kyu level?

If the answer to any of those questions is no, then you will understand why you have to pass all tests again. The genbukan rules state that everybody starts at white if they drop out. they also say that the time between exams can be waived if there is a reason (this is up to the chief dojo cho or shibu cho iirc). So while you would start at white, you could perform all tests at an accelerated pace and be back to where you were in short order.

If you've been absent for 15 years, it's not unreasonable to have to prove yourself all over. If high level practisioners can not be relied on to know all the details properly, then how can lower level students be expected to learn proper techniques?
 

DocWard

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He did not remember the majority of the locks properly, did not know the names, his techniques sucked bad, and he did not know what belonged in which belt level. At that moment, I made up my mind about this issue. If you start over, then you should start all over.

....

So while you would start at white, you could perform all tests at an accelerated pace and be back to where you were in short order.

If you've been absent for 15 years, it's not unreasonable to have to prove yourself all over. If high level practisioners can not be relied on to know all the details properly, then how can lower level students be expected to learn proper techniques?

I agree. It is one of many reasons I have been hesitant to return to my study of Kenpo. The re-learning curve would be a challenge, even though I took copious amounts of notes and still have the majority of them.

It is also one of the many reasons I am considering the Bujinkan
 

repz

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What proof is there that all these men have legitimate ninja legacy?

I was told by a friend that Hatsumii has some scroll that he refuses to show historians, and refuses to give it up for dating. And that Tanemura never had any ninja legacy since no proof exists. Also, the official ninja muesum in japan doesnt aknowledge Hatsumi or Tanumera at all, and has the last true ninja documented (and he doesnt teach) by real historians.

I am not ninja-hating or trying to incite anger, this is just a question that I haven been curious about.
 

Bruno@MT

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Ok simply put:

Tanemura sensei and Hatsumi sensei both have the proper paperwork (the scrolls) to prove their schooling in the martial arts. Both make no bones about showing it. What they won't do, however, is let other people take those scrolls away. IIRC this was a requirement for being recognized as a koryu (traditional jma) by the major koryu scholars.

It would not be the first time such a scroll gets lost (one was even lost in a taxi reportedly) and by their nature, these are irreplacable. Tanemura sensei, Hatsumi sensei and Manaka sensei can trace their lineage to Takamatsu sensei with the proper paperwork. Tanemura also has scrolls he received from other teachers.

A lot of 'my friend knows a friend who says...' stories circulate on the internet, but anyone willing to spend some time doing research will come to the conclusion that both are legit recipients of those scrolls. Various 3d part witnesses and corroborating evidence exist to put that matter at rest.

Now, the main controverse stems from the fact that Takamatsu sensei did not have some of that paperwork. He was taught by several masters in the course of his life, and did not receive said scrolls for the ninjutsu ryuha. Takamatsu was the first one to write down the major things minus the kuden (oral transmissions). To put this in perspective: for ninjutsu ryu this was not entirely uncommon. Other ninjutsu ryuha have been documented as not having scrolls passed down until the end. There are a couple of reasons for this but the point is that this happened to verified ninjutsu lineages so absence of proof is not proof of absence. And this is another reason the Takamatsu-den ninjutsu ryuha are regarded with some suspicion by the koryu orgnization.

The question is then: What level of confidence do we have that Takamatsu sensei was legit. there is a very good blog post about that matter here, which I suggest you read if you honestly want to have an informed opinion:
http://blog.bushinbooks.com/2006/07/05/authenticity-and-the-bujinkan/print/
It is a lengthy read but well put.
 
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