Tanemura & Hatsumi

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Logan, May 9, 2007.

  1. Logan

    Logan Green Belt

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  2. mrhnau

    mrhnau Senior Master

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  3. saru1968

    saru1968 Green Belt

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    The information is too scarce to draw anything conclusive but as its been posted i'm assuming its open for comment?

    Seems odd something so personal for 23 years to be posted now, I wonder about the timing?

    It is interesting to note there is a difference of 8 months from the March 1984 Resignation date untill Tanemura 'found out' in November 1984.

    That 'seems' odd to me.

    On 13th November a resignation letter was sent and oddly enough the Genbukan was born on 28th, i would argue much more foundation work was done than two weeks and one day.

    The Budo he has 'mastered' was from Hatsumi Sensei via Menkyo Kaiden not Takamatsu Sensei. After only meeting Takamatsu Sensei on one afternoon whilst visiting with Hatsumi Sensei does not put him in a position to judge what is the 'true spirit and teachings of Takamatsu Sensei'. He was never a student and recieved no grading or training from Takamatsu Sensei other that the afternoon visit.(as far as i know)

    He might well have train with other students of Takamatsu Sensei after his passing but that like me training with Dan Inosanto after Bruce Lee had passed and then claiming some authority on the man's legacy.

    As far as i'm aware only one man was put in a postion to carry on these teachings.

    Hatsumi Sensei.


    If any of the above is factually incorrect please let me know.

    But thats my view on the topic.
     
  4. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Personally sometimes people go through changes and also sometimes they need to break away to grow. For myself I wish Tanemura Sensei the best and hope that his Genbukan organization prospers.

    Yet I will continue to train in the Bujinkan and with Hatsumi Sensei because he is the rightful and true heir of the Takamatsu Lineage as appointed by Takamatsu himself. Does that make the Genbukan less of an organization or Tanemura Sensei less of an individual or martial artist in my opinion - no!

    Everyone needs to find their path and I wish the best for everyone.

    Find your path and train and grow and enjoy what you do!
     
  5. saru1968

    saru1968 Green Belt

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    a little more info it seems...

    Its from Garth so how reliable is anyone's idea and i have no idea about the source.
    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66722&page=2&pp=15
     
  6. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Well I believe Mr. Gary Arthur has been banned from this forum. That speaks volumes.
     
  7. mrhnau

    mrhnau Senior Master

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    Reason for banning? I've seen people get banned that I highly respect.
     
  8. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Unfortunatley that is not something I can disclose. However usually when someone is banned it is generally for the better.
     
  9. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Now back to the topic I believe sometimes people just need to grow and unfortunately that may entail moving to another place and beginning to teach. More than anything I feel that is what went on here.

    I have seen Tanemura Sensei move and he is fabulous. It was probably his time to move on. He did it and that is that. Personally I wish him the best and everyone in the Genbukan the best. I know several practitioners and they are great guy's and great practitioner's. [​IMG]

    The lineage is the same with slight variations which is the norm when people go their seperate ways. That is the beauty of the Takamatsuden arts in that there are several trees to take a look at.

    For myself it is Bujinkan because my heart in Budo Taijutsu resides there.
    Yet I wish everyone the best from Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinekan to To Shin Do.
     
  10. JadecloudAlchemist

    JadecloudAlchemist Master of Arts

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    I think hearing Hatsumi version would be nice seeing as how Tanemura-san offered his version. I think most knew Tanemura was in the Bujinkan
    however the way Tanemura seems to immortalize Takamatsu made alot of people think that he trained with Takamatsu as well.
    No doubt that Tanemura is a very good martial artist however I find him to be some what of a salesman shark and a smooth talker in Japanese when it comes to business. I once asked what style of Pa kua Tanemura-san learned. The question was answered by Mr. Coleman who in a nut shell went back to he learned it from Kimbei who learned it from Lizi Ming.
    However that would leave the question of where did Lizi Ming learn his art which I found out thru research. Also Sato Kimbei's daughter says some things that in a way contradict things said on the Genbukan website. So there are some questionable things IMO I think anyone who did a little bit if critical thinking might see it.
     
  11. Boondoggleyou

    Boondoggleyou White Belt

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    This really isn't any of our business, whether you're from Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, etc. We really shouldnt go around gossiping about our instructors, it isn't right.
    Just train, that's all it comes down to isn't it?
    I know this is a quote that is used far to much, but maybe this is a correct time to use it. . . "Shut up and train" - Hatsumi Sensei

    We should respect our teachers to a very high degree, be thankful for what they have provided us, and stop worrying so much about matters that honestly arn't any of our business.

    Please understand I am not trying to start any arguments, or fights, that would be the very last thing I would want from any of you.
     
  12. Bigshadow

    Bigshadow Senior Master

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    Well said! That goes for me too! [​IMG]
     
  13. saru1968

    saru1968 Green Belt

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    After 10 mins of google the Genbukan sources would see to indicate the following to the ill informed.

    Not to start a flame war just presenting the info as it is on the websites...



    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura1

    Even though Sato sensei taught martial arts to many people, very few (including Tanemura sensei, at first) knew of Dr. Sato's training with Takamatsu sensei. It wasn't until more than a decade later, that Tanemura sensei (after ending his relationship with another teacher and starting the Genbukan) rediscovered Sato sensei.

    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura2

    Trees and stones were used to develop punching and kicking power, and served to strengthen the hands and feet. He'd punch and strike a tree until his knuckles bleed and his toes were numb. But, Takamatsu Sensei taught him a much better way to develop an effective defense.

    http://www.seikadojo.co.uk/sensei_history.htm

    Once one of his teachers taught him a much better way to develop a strong strike, his teacher told him that a true martial artist passes by in a crowd unseen.

    http://www.divinehumanity.com/custom/spiritma.html

    Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei
    One of Tanemura Sensei's teachers

    http://www.ninpo.co.uk/

    Kikaku was the first martial art name of Grandmaster Takamatsu Sensei (Grandmaster Tanemuras teacher), who was the last living combatitive ninja, it is with great pride that we carry this great tradition.

    http://www.genbukan.ca/articles/tanemura_talks.html

    Another is that I still needed to learn from somebody, still needed a teacher and Takamatsu Sensei has already passed away.

    http://fugadojo.orgfree.com/pg005.html

    It wasn't until more than a decade later, that Tanemura sensei (after ending his relationship with another teacher and starting the Genbukan) rediscovered Sato sensei.


    http://users.skynet.be/chiryaku/eng...er_tanemura.htm

    Some of Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei's teachers :

    • Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei
    • Sato Kinbei Sensei
    • Kimura Masaji Sensei
    • Fukumoto Yoshio Sensei
    • Kobayashi Masao Sensei
    • Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei
    • Seishiro Saito Sensei
    • Nagao Zenyu Sensei
    • Suzuki Sensei


    Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei has done many demonstrations worldwide and taught Ninpo and Ju-Jutsu to FBI agents, policemen, SWAT teams, SAS and other elite-team instructors. He was the first Grandmaster of Ninpo ever who left Japan in 1976 to teach in a Western country (USA - Atlanta). He was also the teacher of the first foreigners (Doron Navon, Stephen Hayes, ...) who came to Japan to learn Ninpo in the seventies.

    http://users.skynet.be/chiryaku/eng...r_takamatsu.htm

    He was well known in Japan as a Grandmaster of Ju-Jutsu and Bojutsu but many people were surprised by his death to hear that he was a true Ninja Grandmaster (of 9 schools).



    He taught (Takamatsu Sensei)and formed many next generation Grandmasters under which :

    • Kimura Masaharu Sensei

    • Akimoto Fumio Sensei

    • Sato Kinbei Sensei

    • Ueno Takashi Sensei

    • Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei

    • Fukumoto Yoshio Sensei

    • Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei


    http://www.myojo-dojo.com/initial_page.htm

    (under profiles Tanemura Shoto)

    It was a very hard time for the young Grandmaster who received his first Menkyo Kaiden in Shinden Fudo Ryu and Kukishin Ryu at the age of 20 ! At the age of 15 he started training with Grandmaster Toshitsugu Takamatsu Sensei. He majored in law at Hosei University and at the age of 22 he became a police officer, later an instructor, at Tokyo's Metropolitan Police Academy.



    I could go on googling but to the uninformed its seems Hatsumi Sensei was never his teacher and certainly indicates Takamatsu Sensei role was more invloved than a meeting of one afternoon.

    All this info comes from Genbukan websites.
     
  14. FudoshinDojo

    FudoshinDojo White Belt

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    (Tie in from E-budo)

    In regards to some recent posts, I would like to politely make a few comments from my own personal view point:



    If this is so, what direct teaching can actually exist as regards Tanemura and Takamatsu?>>

    Mr. Hatsumi was training with Takamatsu Sensei, in 1957 and Tanemura Sensei was training with Mr. Hatsumi in 1963, only five years difference, Takamatsu Sensei was alive for another 10 years roughly when Tanemura Sensei was training with Mr. Hatsumi, although there was only the one highly known about occasion where Mr. Hatsumi took all off the students to visit and train according to Tanemura Sensei there was other instances of communication between he and Takamatsu Sensei in the form of letters, stating, "he would be a great master", also he "should be the nest Soke of Togakure Ryu".

    Obviously these things no doubt left a huge impression on Tanemura Sensei, as well he was training with Mr. Hatsumi with Takamatsu Sensei in the same manner as Takamatsu Sensei taught, in his opinion based off his 10 years of training when Takamatsu Sensei was alive, a style of training that he felt changed and dissapeared over the years. According to Tanemura Sensei, when Mr. Hatsumi returned from training with Takamatsu Sensei, he would be used to be experimented on with the training. So I would say, it was not the number of times he trained with Takamatsu Sensei that in my opinion he is stressing, but the style of training when Takamatsu Sensei was alive that he wanted to impart thus the comments, "my beloved teacher Takamatsu Sensei", etc. Let me also add, how many other people are Grandmaster of Takamatsu Sensei's line of teachings? when Tanemura Sensei, met Kimura and Sato Sensei, he brought other teachings of Takamatsu Sensei's into the light as well. I am not saying that Takamatsu Sensei did not teach Mr. Hatsumi everything he knew or withheld information, but there were other ryu-ha that were passed on and probably a different perspective or emphasis on the martial arts at those stages of his development as a martial artist.

    The only contact that the both had together was when Hatsumi Sensei took his students to visit and train one afternoon.>>

    Tanemura Sensei's opinion differs in this respect, as in the letters of communication. Let me also say, in traditional martial arts, it would have been very rude of Tanemura Sensei at that time to try and go around his teacher, Mr. Hatsumi and initiate some form of communication, the communication came from Takamatsu Sensei, according to Tanemura Sensei

    In closing I would say that whoever your teacher is, is your teacher, and arguements, such as my dad can beat up your dad really only result in futility and victory in the mind only, it will not make your Ninpo any better. For me Tanemura Sensei is my teacher and I am proud and honored to be a part of his lineage, as well as Takamatsu Sensei, but I never knew Takamatsu Sensei and good chance that Takamatsu Sensei would have never accepted foreigners as students. If you follow Mr. Hatsumi, or Mr. Manaka, or Tanemura Sensei, we must all be thankful that we are even able to train in tis art, and glean more similarities than differences when our paths cross.
    __________________
    Brian Hodges
    Renshi
    GWNBF/KJJR
    Fudoshin Dojo-cho
    http://fudoshindojo.ieasysite.com/
     
  15. Obi Wan Shinobi

    Obi Wan Shinobi Green Belt

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    Well if Tanemura gave that to Hatsumi Sensei why would he still be in possesion of it?
     
  16. Ninpo81

    Ninpo81 White Belt

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    I know this is an old discussion, I have not been on here or any martial forums for ages and do not plan on returning. Training is more important for me now; I realize not much can be learned from seeking questions on the net but for the next one like me I leave you this.

    Most of you on here will remember me as the beginner who was seeking answers about authentic ninpo. I went off and took a look at genbukan; was even swayed and almost joined the org what an idiot I would have been. I did waste a good deal of money on tanemura's basic books, taijutsu dvd and "spirit of ninja" audio cd (RIP OFF!) only one of the many red flags I noticed while investigating his organization. I'm not trying to discredit his martial ability, he indeed is a very good martial artist and would definitely kick my *** any day of the week; however I have come to the conclusion that he is a liar and a rip off. I should have heeded Shihan Martin's advice before I even looked into this man but NOO I always gotta learn things the hard way an so be it. Now I can share info with others. Unbiased info at that. An to Shihan Martin if I ever offended you or betrayed your trust I am truly sorry as I was highly mislead by many and very confused due to the mass amount of politics within the american ninpo community. So back to my point and reason for posting. I read Ninpo Secrets countless times, own the ninja fluff documentary put out by Michael Coleman, Read Fundamentals of Taijutsu Vol.1 (wow what a lack of information at 30 dollars that was much like the "heart to heart" spiritual audio cd I received for a similar price) Oh by the way that audio cd if you own either of those books above is Tanemura reading (in his very unskilled english) sections from both books with a little kuji chant thrown in for further enticemet; actually fundamental taijutsu should of been included in Ninpo Secrets (most of the information in that book comprises the first two or three chapters in Ninpo Secrets (actually a very informative book if you disregard Tanemura's propaganda of Hatsumi being this evil greedy money machine) if you ask me..lack of space...*rolls eyes* more like give me your money and I'll feed you just enough to keep you thirsty for more..please stupid american come to my dojo in japan and train real ninja style..how absurd. His rules are far worse..if you skip a certain number of classes you have to start over from 10th kyu and PAY a large sum of money once again, also if you want scrolls of any of the ryuha they are extremely expensive. Download a copy of the Genbukan rules you may die of a heart attack if you are an average or poor citizen and have no way to ever come up with these amounts of money witout Genbukan being your soul entire reason for livng ('true ninja was just a citizen or farmer'-Shoto Tanemura).

    Anyway it seems like I"m doing a lot of bashing and I may be a tad but I'm quite enraged and it's not just because I wasted time and money investigating this lying sack of ****. But because I stumbled upon this as well; an old interview with Hatsumi that cleared up a few 'rumors' that had been floating around this board and others on the net.

    Here it is for anyone who is interested a link to the real mag can also be found below:

    Blackbelt Magazine October 1986

    'HATSUMI: Tanemura-san and I are distant cousins. Last year, my mother died and Tanemura-san came to the fueral, where he got involved in a scuffle with a policeman who was his senior.
    They didn't have a good relationship and split over something, resulting in a fight. When Tanemura-san was a policeman, this official was senior to him, but in ninjutsu, Tanemura-san was higher and was
    frustrated because he wanted to obtain a higher (police) rank than his senior. I tried to intervene in the fight, but was unsuccessful, then afterward I tried to heal the trouble between the two. But I have never
    tried to control Tanemura or anyoneelse, and didn't try to order Tanemura around. Tanemura-san wants strict control of his students and wants to be the boss.
    But I can't agree with this approach because I feel that everyone is equal, and I have no interest in controlling others. However, he was anxious to become the master of his own ninjutsu school and put himself in a position of being able to control
    others. Everyone knows that Tanemura doesn't have enough ninjutsu skills for setting up his own school. His fighting at the funeral showed that he wasn't qualified to be the head of a ninjutsu school. I don't regard Tanemura-san as my rival. He has a bogus school and doesn't
    have the real ninjutsu spirit. Tanemura-san wanted to be number one and started his own school so he could be number one, but he teaches a different kind of ninjutsu because the heart and spirit are different.'

    Ninja Seishin Towa Shin Shin..blah blah blah my ***; Tanemura is a Hypocrite and as someone in another Ninpo org once told me; he's a nut as well. His master level tests are catching bare blades with your bare hand and feeling the spirit of the blade not the person but a piece of metal....wow...good luck to whatever 8th dan decides to try that one..yeah I noticed that most of the Genbukan members are 8th dan no one has gone higher..wonder why seeing as 9th dan test requires this test or one quite similar to it I forget. But I know when I read it the words "tanemura is crazy" echoed in the back of my head. Yes someone told me this once and I should have listened to him.

    So enough of my ranting..SORRY to everyone I'm just kind of angry right now.

    I have not seen this quoted or posted on any forum so I figured it was worth posting for someone else before they too get dupped by tanemura and his genbukan scam.

    Here is the link I got it from: http://books.google.com/books?id=zd...resnum=4&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
     
  17. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Ninpo81, I am sorry you had a bad experience with the Genbukan and while I practice Budo Taijutsu within the Bujinkan I will say that the Genbukan in my opinion is a quality organization. Is it expensive to practice a true budo way? Generally it is! I have and do not keep track of how much I personally have spent because I might be upset about it in the future. [​IMG] Tanemura Sensei is a fabulous martial practitioner and having meet a few Genbukan people they were all quality people as well. Disagreements happen between people all the time and people will leave organizations for their different reasons. Some times people need to move on and grow in a different direction. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

    Again my heart and mind in Budo reside in the Bujinkan! However, I always try to keep an open mind! Just my 02! [​IMG]
     
  18. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    The book is designed to be useless without actual in person training. Many of the pictures show smaller or bigger errors, or are printed in mirror to confuse left and right. This was done on purpose.


    So in a case of he-said-she-said on the internet, concerning 2 people you've never met and probably never will, from a culture you have no understanding of, you judge something to be true because it was written in an article?

    He was 8th dan at the time of the split, and held menkyo kaiden in many arts incl Togakure ryu. If that is not enough to start a school, then what is? And he was accepted as student by several of Takamatsu sensei's old studentswhere he earned other menkyo kaiden.

    If the story you mention was true, he would not have been accepted by each of them.

    then you haven't looked very hard. many versions and sides of that story float around on the internet.
     
  19. derobec

    derobec Orange Belt

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    Hi,

    Firstly, let me clearly state that I have no connection with any of the schools which are being discussed in this thread although I was once (many years ago) a kyu grade in the Bujinkan.

    What I find pointless is that these 'issues' are still being argued over after almost thirty years.

    Back in the mid eighties it was interesting, simply because of the general lack of information. Up untill then it was Bujinkan or nothing; all of a sudden we were presented with another place in which to learn the arts that make up what later became known as Takamatsu-den/X-kan.

    Yes, the manner in which the training was being offered was different, but lets be sure of one thing; untill Tanemura sensei broke away from the Bujinkan dojo he was unquestionably one of Hatsumi sensei's right hand men.

    Now, as to whether he had been 'taught everything', who knows? Although the fact that he received menkyo in various of the schools would suggest that he was in fact worthy of such licences. I appreciate the often quoted references to Hatsumi sensei sometimes giving grades beyond a student's current ability as an incentive but I'd always imagined that that was really just the blackbelt grades. It hadn't occurred to me that the original licences which he issued were also given as 'incentives'. The fact that Tanemura sensei's SFR licence was apparently issued (by Hatsumi sensei) before Takamatsu sensei died would imply (to an outsider with only a basic knowledge of the Takamatsu-den) that it was the 'real thing'.

    Here we are, twenty six years after the split, still worrying why/what/who/how. Who cares? Both schools are still going strong. The people that want to train in these arts will each be attracted to a paticular school for their own reasons and that, in my oppinion, is how it should be. Raking up a magazine article that has been in the public domain since the mid eighties to show just one side of the 'arguement' seems a pointless thing to do.

    Anyway, Best Wishes to all,
    William
     
  20. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    Aye. Big +1.

    All 3 X kan heads are legitimate masters of the traditional arts from which they composed their system. All the rest is really not that relevant. The only people to whom it would concern are the soke themselves.

    For all the rest of us, the only thing that matters is the legitimacy of their arts. And for all 3 kans this is not a problem. All 3 have a different way of teaching, so just find the one that is best for you and practise.

    My heart is with Genbukan. To each his own I'd say. All 3 are equally valid.123
     

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