I may have been a bit harsh given the state of mind I was in. That's not the only reason I was angry. I also had been reading a bunch of claims on bullshido that Tanemura's other teacher's never actually had one on one time with Takamatsu and studied from letters. I also have learned that his story about being the winner in the court case was false. An that the Japanese gave favor to Hatsumi in that case...Never the less I came on here to apologize. Whoever made the statement about not caring about this matter is correct. I shouldn't really care. I guess Tanemura is just a little too..uncertain for me to want to place all my time and what little money I make into. I haven't really seen one shread of proof that any of these ex students (other than Hatsumi) was ever his teacher..one photo maybe two in Ninpo Secrets...not enough proof for me. Like I said before he's an excellent martial artists I definitely will give him that; but as for training under him, that's something I can't do because you can't train under someone you can't trust and I think this guy no matter how much I wanted to believe he was the real deal; there is just too much uncertainty for me. Again I appologize for my rude remarks I shouldn't have bashed the Genbukan the way I did. From what I've seen Genbukan students have a great amount of skill and it was wrong for me to say things in the manner I said them.
Tanemura & Hatsumi
- Thread starter Logan
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Hi Ninpo81,
I'm sure we can all appreciate your apology.
To be honest though, I can't but help think that the people who should be apologizing (to you, and to themselves if they have any self respect) are the ones on that other forum who've been writing some of the nonsense which has effected your own judgement.
Now, as I wrote before, I've no connection to the Genbukan. However, I'm pretty sure that it's a sound vehicle for learning good solid martial arts; the financial costs of training, no matter which art/s we choose, are invariably high (and so long as we keep learning, never ending!). For us mortals without unlimited funds there is simply no way around that one -the best we can do is to keep going to the best of our abilities.
I hope that you continue to train in the Takamatsu-den arts as you obviously have a true interest in them which so far hasn't been given a fair chance (but to be honest, anything will do so long as you're doing something). Forget the politics and petty back-biting, it's not worthy behaviour for a martial arts student to be engaged in, as Bruno@MT wrote "...the only thing that matters is the legitimacy of their arts...".
There are plenty of 'forum assassins' lurking in the shadows ever ready to write something nasty. By ignoring them to the best of our ability we can take away most of their power (not that they'll ever be allowed any power over me).
As my gran used to drum into me when I was a child "The least said is The soonest mended"
Best Wishes & Good Training
William
I'm sure we can all appreciate your apology.
To be honest though, I can't but help think that the people who should be apologizing (to you, and to themselves if they have any self respect) are the ones on that other forum who've been writing some of the nonsense which has effected your own judgement.
Now, as I wrote before, I've no connection to the Genbukan. However, I'm pretty sure that it's a sound vehicle for learning good solid martial arts; the financial costs of training, no matter which art/s we choose, are invariably high (and so long as we keep learning, never ending!). For us mortals without unlimited funds there is simply no way around that one -the best we can do is to keep going to the best of our abilities.
I hope that you continue to train in the Takamatsu-den arts as you obviously have a true interest in them which so far hasn't been given a fair chance (but to be honest, anything will do so long as you're doing something). Forget the politics and petty back-biting, it's not worthy behaviour for a martial arts student to be engaged in, as Bruno@MT wrote "...the only thing that matters is the legitimacy of their arts...".
There are plenty of 'forum assassins' lurking in the shadows ever ready to write something nasty. By ignoring them to the best of our ability we can take away most of their power (not that they'll ever be allowed any power over me).
As my gran used to drum into me when I was a child "The least said is The soonest mended"
Best Wishes & Good Training
William
EWBell
Orange Belt
Ninpo81, who on bullshido is in a position to know which of Tanemura Sensei's teachers had trained with Takamatsu Sensei or not? Sorry but Bullshido is not the be all end all of martial arts debunking, and things I read there I take with a grain of salt like I would anywhere else. I personally know of people who have trained with Sato Kinbei sensei and Tanemura Soke at the same place. The Kuki family even recognizes the teacher/student relationship between these two. As far as the court case goes, I have no clue, and I'd venture to say that anything you've heard thus far is hearsay. There are more than a few folks in other organizations who would love to put Tanemura Soke in a bad light because they believe they have the only road of transmission for certain arts.
Did you ever have a teacher in the Genbukan, or were you one of those folks who tried to train on their own? BTW, the shihan test for 8th dan is with a live blade, and as you can see there are several who have passed it. No one has taken the 9th dan test yet because they aren't ready, but I'm sure someone will.
Did you ever have a teacher in the Genbukan, or were you one of those folks who tried to train on their own? BTW, the shihan test for 8th dan is with a live blade, and as you can see there are several who have passed it. No one has taken the 9th dan test yet because they aren't ready, but I'm sure someone will.
Bruno@MT
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The shihan test is indeed already with a live blade. It is also worth noting that one doesn't get to ask for the test. It is Tanemura sensei who decides when you are ready.
As for evidence about the relation between Takamatsu sensei to his other students and then on to Tanemura sensei: As was already mentioned this is recognized by the kuki family. Tanemura sensei also has the Togakure-ryu densho that belonged to Fukumoto Yoshio, which was orignally issued by Takamatsu sensei.
As for evidence about the relation between Takamatsu sensei to his other students and then on to Tanemura sensei: As was already mentioned this is recognized by the kuki family. Tanemura sensei also has the Togakure-ryu densho that belonged to Fukumoto Yoshio, which was orignally issued by Takamatsu sensei.
I stand corrected. An once again apologize.
Yes I am one who tried to train on his own because I don't really know who to trust. Too many people want to make money off of each other and too many people have a different version to stories which in my opiinion AUTHENTICATE the teacher. I'm not paying someone mass amounts of money to learn something that isn't true Takamatsuden. But again I'm sorry. I guess I'll have to look into this further.
Yes I am one who tried to train on his own because I don't really know who to trust. Too many people want to make money off of each other and too many people have a different version to stories which in my opiinion AUTHENTICATE the teacher. I'm not paying someone mass amounts of money to learn something that isn't true Takamatsuden. But again I'm sorry. I guess I'll have to look into this further.
Bruno@MT
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No worries. It is easy to get confused.
When I found genbukan, (before I knew anything about the kan background at all) I did a lot of research before signing up, just to make sure that I was not joining someones fantasy world.
Unfortunately even the legitimate organizations have their share of controversy. I've read many accounts of the funeral incident, and the comments by both Takamatsu sensei and Tanemura sensei. The only thing I can concluded is that both are human beings with their own perception of what really happened.
And that incident was probably only the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. Tanemura sensei was Hatsumi sensei's right hand man for years so I don't think a single incident would cause such a falling out.
However, I read hundreds of forum posts, blog posts and other articles, and managed to come to the following conclusion:
1) Noone will probably get the full story behind the various controverses.
2) All 3 heads of their respective xkan legitimately hold menkyo kaiden for the arts of which their systems are composed.
With that in mind, I was confident enough to become a member of Genbukan and realized that it didn't really matter, outside of personal preference for the training methods.
When I found genbukan, (before I knew anything about the kan background at all) I did a lot of research before signing up, just to make sure that I was not joining someones fantasy world.
Unfortunately even the legitimate organizations have their share of controversy. I've read many accounts of the funeral incident, and the comments by both Takamatsu sensei and Tanemura sensei. The only thing I can concluded is that both are human beings with their own perception of what really happened.
And that incident was probably only the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. Tanemura sensei was Hatsumi sensei's right hand man for years so I don't think a single incident would cause such a falling out.
However, I read hundreds of forum posts, blog posts and other articles, and managed to come to the following conclusion:
1) Noone will probably get the full story behind the various controverses.
2) All 3 heads of their respective xkan legitimately hold menkyo kaiden for the arts of which their systems are composed.
With that in mind, I was confident enough to become a member of Genbukan and realized that it didn't really matter, outside of personal preference for the training methods.
I think it's probably not worth talking about the personal differences between Hatsumi Sensei and Mr. Tanemura.
Their martial arts now have almost nothing to do with each other, from my point of view. So there's plenty of material to make a decision between one or the other without getting into personal matters.
To me it's like comparing two books from the opposite sides of the library, sure, they're both written in English, but that's about where the similarities end.
Their martial arts now have almost nothing to do with each other, from my point of view. So there's plenty of material to make a decision between one or the other without getting into personal matters.
To me it's like comparing two books from the opposite sides of the library, sure, they're both written in English, but that's about where the similarities end.
Troy Wideman
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Hello Ninpo81,
I am sorry you have had such a bad experience with the Genbukan and I appreciate your apology. Part of the problem is that you did not have a direct teacher to lead you in a proper direction. In relation to the cost of material, you will find that all organizations charge a fee for material and the Genbukan's is on par with other organizations. As you said it was your choice to buy the CD's and the books, this was how you decided to learn the art. I will be the first to admit that if you tried to buy all the CD's and books it could get expensive. Learning just from CD's is not advisable to begin with, they are just used as a reference.
However, in saying that, I spent thousands of dollars to fly to Japan and study with Tanemura Sensei because that was my choice. There was no one forcing me to make this decision, I choose to put my money there. I do not regret it one ounce. I think the fees that are charged for gradings in the Genbukan are actually very reasonable. For example, a shodan is only $100 dollars american, with a testing fee added which is usually around $50. I know for a fact that an aikido shodan is around $500. It really just depends on the organization. In relation to receiving Makimono, in any traditional organization, this is expensive. However, again it is not forced on you to buy. If you wish you can just have a certificate that says you are of the rank. I choose to have the makimono but again that is an individuals choice. Tanemura sensei, allowed me to take the makimono home without paying and send him the money later, he is very giving when he gets to know you personally as his student.
In relation to the court case you made reference to, this actually had nothing to do with martial arts, it was a family arguement over land and the issue of Tanemura sensei's Gikan ryu licence and grandmastership was brought into the court case. Tanemura sensei had to produce his scrolls that were given to him by Sato Kinbei sensei. The martial art side of the court case was an side thing that got dragged into it. However, as everyone has stated this is old information and does not need to be dragged back up.
How someone runs his business is really not anyone's concern, if it is a concern they do not buy the product that the company produces. For example; in Canada we have Future shop and Best buy, both companies are owned by the same corporation, however, things are more expensive in Future shop and people still buy there. It comes down to personal preference.
I wish you luck with your training. If you are ever up in the great white north, please come by my dojo. I will allow you to train for free for 1 week. Maybe we can change your impression of the Genbukan for the better.
All three organizations have something good to offer, it is just up to you to decide which organization fits you best.
Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman
I am sorry you have had such a bad experience with the Genbukan and I appreciate your apology. Part of the problem is that you did not have a direct teacher to lead you in a proper direction. In relation to the cost of material, you will find that all organizations charge a fee for material and the Genbukan's is on par with other organizations. As you said it was your choice to buy the CD's and the books, this was how you decided to learn the art. I will be the first to admit that if you tried to buy all the CD's and books it could get expensive. Learning just from CD's is not advisable to begin with, they are just used as a reference.
However, in saying that, I spent thousands of dollars to fly to Japan and study with Tanemura Sensei because that was my choice. There was no one forcing me to make this decision, I choose to put my money there. I do not regret it one ounce. I think the fees that are charged for gradings in the Genbukan are actually very reasonable. For example, a shodan is only $100 dollars american, with a testing fee added which is usually around $50. I know for a fact that an aikido shodan is around $500. It really just depends on the organization. In relation to receiving Makimono, in any traditional organization, this is expensive. However, again it is not forced on you to buy. If you wish you can just have a certificate that says you are of the rank. I choose to have the makimono but again that is an individuals choice. Tanemura sensei, allowed me to take the makimono home without paying and send him the money later, he is very giving when he gets to know you personally as his student.
In relation to the court case you made reference to, this actually had nothing to do with martial arts, it was a family arguement over land and the issue of Tanemura sensei's Gikan ryu licence and grandmastership was brought into the court case. Tanemura sensei had to produce his scrolls that were given to him by Sato Kinbei sensei. The martial art side of the court case was an side thing that got dragged into it. However, as everyone has stated this is old information and does not need to be dragged back up.
How someone runs his business is really not anyone's concern, if it is a concern they do not buy the product that the company produces. For example; in Canada we have Future shop and Best buy, both companies are owned by the same corporation, however, things are more expensive in Future shop and people still buy there. It comes down to personal preference.
I wish you luck with your training. If you are ever up in the great white north, please come by my dojo. I will allow you to train for free for 1 week. Maybe we can change your impression of the Genbukan for the better.
All three organizations have something good to offer, it is just up to you to decide which organization fits you best.
Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman
SensibleManiac
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You mean he's very trusting, if he was giving he would just give you the makimono. According to your example.
I'm not saying that he isn't giving, maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
What I'm saying is that people often talk about their "teachers" with a reverence that clouds their critical thinking.
This is one thing that I strongly disagree with in these arts.
Martial arts are ultimately about the people who practice them and the benefits they can bring in their lives, they should never be about the "art" itself or the "gurus" behind them.
I'm not saying that this is the case here, just that my experience with the Genbukan has been less than great and very stifling, in terms of martial arts training.
Troy Wideman
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hello Sensible Maniac,
I am sorry to hear that. Who did you train with and how long?
Well I don't think my critical thinking has been compromised but I understand where you are coming from.
Any traditional japanese martial art or chinese for that matter can be to westerners very stifling because you have the culture mixed in with the martial art. I guess if you want to train in a traditional art this is something you have to come to understand and deal with. I trained with Quing Fu Pan as well and you could say the way he approached training, would be considered stifling to most westerners also.
All the best.
Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman
I am sorry to hear that. Who did you train with and how long?
Well I don't think my critical thinking has been compromised but I understand where you are coming from.
Any traditional japanese martial art or chinese for that matter can be to westerners very stifling because you have the culture mixed in with the martial art. I guess if you want to train in a traditional art this is something you have to come to understand and deal with. I trained with Quing Fu Pan as well and you could say the way he approached training, would be considered stifling to most westerners also.
All the best.
Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman
Gary Arthur
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Ninpo 81 Posted
Actually I think that the books that Mr Tanemura produces are very good and Ninpo secrets possible the best book ever written on Ninpo. Fundamentals of Taijutsu is a grading book, it not intended to be a sit down and learn book.
As a friend of mine once said "Hatsumi is the superstar and Tanemura is the performer"
OK I would not go so far as that but I have several problems with what I have heard and read.
Firstly regardless of what others say Mr Tanemura did mention his times training with Mr Takamatsu even though many have pointed out that it was on one occasion only.
Secondly the miraculous dream he had when travelling on a plane to initiate again Hakuun ryu.
Thirdly the ridiculous claims he makes about the Amatsu tatara originating from Babylon.
No it doesnt.
I cant remember that although i always find it strange that Mr Tanemura always tends to ignore all those years of training with Dr Hatsumi in his bio.
Well I have attended a few seminars and asked questions only to be told "When you are fifth dan". Maybe he has a point and maybe I wasnt ready but it still smacks of dangling a carrot.
With this I can agree with. I started in the Genbukan in the 1980s and attended quite a few seminars. I eventually earned 1st kyu black belt and then was given (Without testing) a black belt. I sent off my money for my grade and that of my students and the nidan tapes (Tapes at the time not DVDs) and received nothing. After several calls to Japan i gave up. I left shortly after that.
Anyway last year I thought about joining again and contacted the local British Representative. He contacted Mr Tanemura and I was told that I would have to begin all over again. There is no way after spending 6 years in the Genbukan being a group leader having to start all over again. Back then I was good enough to send Mr Tanemura money from my students for their grading ( A Grade I had given them) but years on i'm worth nothing even though I have continued training and gained other grades including a black belt under Stephen K Hayes (A ex students of Mr Tanemura).
Garth
Actually I think that the books that Mr Tanemura produces are very good and Ninpo secrets possible the best book ever written on Ninpo. Fundamentals of Taijutsu is a grading book, it not intended to be a sit down and learn book.
As a friend of mine once said "Hatsumi is the superstar and Tanemura is the performer"
OK I would not go so far as that but I have several problems with what I have heard and read.
Firstly regardless of what others say Mr Tanemura did mention his times training with Mr Takamatsu even though many have pointed out that it was on one occasion only.
Secondly the miraculous dream he had when travelling on a plane to initiate again Hakuun ryu.
Thirdly the ridiculous claims he makes about the Amatsu tatara originating from Babylon.
No it doesnt.
I cant remember that although i always find it strange that Mr Tanemura always tends to ignore all those years of training with Dr Hatsumi in his bio.
Well I have attended a few seminars and asked questions only to be told "When you are fifth dan". Maybe he has a point and maybe I wasnt ready but it still smacks of dangling a carrot.
With this I can agree with. I started in the Genbukan in the 1980s and attended quite a few seminars. I eventually earned 1st kyu black belt and then was given (Without testing) a black belt. I sent off my money for my grade and that of my students and the nidan tapes (Tapes at the time not DVDs) and received nothing. After several calls to Japan i gave up. I left shortly after that.
Anyway last year I thought about joining again and contacted the local British Representative. He contacted Mr Tanemura and I was told that I would have to begin all over again. There is no way after spending 6 years in the Genbukan being a group leader having to start all over again. Back then I was good enough to send Mr Tanemura money from my students for their grading ( A Grade I had given them) but years on i'm worth nothing even though I have continued training and gained other grades including a black belt under Stephen K Hayes (A ex students of Mr Tanemura).
Garth
Troy Wideman
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Hi Garth,
Hope your training is going well under Stephen Hayes.
In regards to you having to retest all over again, this is a quality control thing for the organization and it is Tanemura Sensei's rule. I am not sure how that is a bad thing? I understand you have been training in Toshindo and even though it has roots to our training it would be different and as you have stated you have been away for a few years. It only makes sense that you would have to redo things. I would imagine that you would fast track to a certain degree over a few things. However, I did not partake in the conversation with Tanemura Sensei about you joining, so I am not sure what was discussed. I myself was a high rank in the bujinkan and had to restart. It was my decision and was a good one.
In relation to the Hakuun Ryu thing, this was a private conversation between student and teacher and it hit the internet which is always a problem. Many people receive inspiration in many ways, just look at other notable people in the world or any other koryu organization. You will notice in the different koryu histories there are stories like this all over the place. However, this has been discussed numerous times and rehashed and rehashed. Not really that big of a deal in my mind. So he had a dream and felt inspired by it!! I think more people need to be inspired by things and to have dreams! Hahahhaha.
Sorry, we didn't get a chance to meet, I mean if you would have joined. Anyways, all the best.
Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman
Hope your training is going well under Stephen Hayes.
In regards to you having to retest all over again, this is a quality control thing for the organization and it is Tanemura Sensei's rule. I am not sure how that is a bad thing? I understand you have been training in Toshindo and even though it has roots to our training it would be different and as you have stated you have been away for a few years. It only makes sense that you would have to redo things. I would imagine that you would fast track to a certain degree over a few things. However, I did not partake in the conversation with Tanemura Sensei about you joining, so I am not sure what was discussed. I myself was a high rank in the bujinkan and had to restart. It was my decision and was a good one.
In relation to the Hakuun Ryu thing, this was a private conversation between student and teacher and it hit the internet which is always a problem. Many people receive inspiration in many ways, just look at other notable people in the world or any other koryu organization. You will notice in the different koryu histories there are stories like this all over the place. However, this has been discussed numerous times and rehashed and rehashed. Not really that big of a deal in my mind. So he had a dream and felt inspired by it!! I think more people need to be inspired by things and to have dreams! Hahahhaha.
Sorry, we didn't get a chance to meet, I mean if you would have joined. Anyways, all the best.
Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman
Gary Arthur
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Troy Wideman posted
Lets try to equate that with something else. For example lets imagine I was a plumber and took a few years out. Then I decided to take up plumbing again, would I be asked to start at stage one again?
No of course not. I might have to sit my corgi exam again and do a refresher course maybe, but to start from stage one?
But besides the point whether its private or not the guy still claims to have had a miraculous message from the heavens.
Which actually makes me wonder what things he says in private to his students.
Garth
Not under Stephen Hayes anymore hense why I looked at rejoining the Genbukan.
I understand the quality control thing i really do. BUT isnt it too much that someone starts from the beginning. After all Mushadori is still Mushadori.
Lets try to equate that with something else. For example lets imagine I was a plumber and took a few years out. Then I decided to take up plumbing again, would I be asked to start at stage one again?
No of course not. I might have to sit my corgi exam again and do a refresher course maybe, but to start from stage one?
Yes redo a few things but as i said, mushadori is mushadori and a front roll is a front roll. Or is it a case of "Get your black belt with the Genbukan but if you dont carry on training your grade is worthless"?
Strange I thought it was in one of the old BUFU magazines and was available to all Genbukan members.
But besides the point whether its private or not the guy still claims to have had a miraculous message from the heavens.
Which actually makes me wonder what things he says in private to his students.
And I would say those people are deluded too. An argument from ad populorum does not make something true. Did you know that in the medieval period people believed that mental illness was caused by demons. Gee I guess if the people believed it then it must have been OK.
Well its all down to what you want to believe. if your happy believing in the so called miraculous messages from heaven thats fine by me. Personally I want a little bit more evidence.
Great I had a dream that I met Takamatsu and he asked me to teach Togakure ryu, in fact he visits me every night in my dreams and teaches me. Everyone please come to my seminars and pay me lots of money. I feel inspired.
Thank you.
Garth
Troy Wideman
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Hi Gary,
First off a Plumber has the same standard where ever they go. The techniques don't vary. However, I would say that the techniques vary from org to org. This is my view.
Now obviously you had these views about Tanemura sensei when you were deciding to join a year ago and it seems like you have some animosity towards the organization. Why then did you want to join? Maybe this was portrayed to the person you asked to join through and he passed on this message to Tanemura Sensei. Just something to consider.
Inrelation to you having dreams of Takamatsu teaching you, is a little different then Tanemura Sensei having an inspiration to restart something based on his previous skill. However, I don't know why we are even discussing this, he did not start it up. Also, I was not part of the conversation so I cannot tell you exactly what Tanemura sensei said, I can only go off of what I was told by senior members of the org.
Inrelation to your black belt. I thought you said it was given to you and you did not publicly test for it. This might be the reason you had to do everything over and that would make sense. In relation to doing everything over, this does not necessarily mean you would to have to pay for those ranks, you might just had to have been signed off by someone that is current and viewed you doing the patterns. This way someone that is current over sees the patterns and makes sure you are on par with what is expected.
I have done this before myself, however, I am not sure of your situation. Since it seems you have a bit of animosity towards Tanemura Sensei and the internet can be searched and past messages can be brought up, this is what might have occurred. I know if someone in Canada wants to join, I do a mini investigation into them to determine if they should and then I report my finding to Tanemura Sensei because it is ultimately up to his decision.
However, it really doesn't matter because you are not part of the organization. I wish you luck in your search, you might want to think about Manaka's organization, they have a lot of great guys.
All the best,
Troy Wideman
First off a Plumber has the same standard where ever they go. The techniques don't vary. However, I would say that the techniques vary from org to org. This is my view.
Now obviously you had these views about Tanemura sensei when you were deciding to join a year ago and it seems like you have some animosity towards the organization. Why then did you want to join? Maybe this was portrayed to the person you asked to join through and he passed on this message to Tanemura Sensei. Just something to consider.
Inrelation to you having dreams of Takamatsu teaching you, is a little different then Tanemura Sensei having an inspiration to restart something based on his previous skill. However, I don't know why we are even discussing this, he did not start it up. Also, I was not part of the conversation so I cannot tell you exactly what Tanemura sensei said, I can only go off of what I was told by senior members of the org.
Inrelation to your black belt. I thought you said it was given to you and you did not publicly test for it. This might be the reason you had to do everything over and that would make sense. In relation to doing everything over, this does not necessarily mean you would to have to pay for those ranks, you might just had to have been signed off by someone that is current and viewed you doing the patterns. This way someone that is current over sees the patterns and makes sure you are on par with what is expected.
I have done this before myself, however, I am not sure of your situation. Since it seems you have a bit of animosity towards Tanemura Sensei and the internet can be searched and past messages can be brought up, this is what might have occurred. I know if someone in Canada wants to join, I do a mini investigation into them to determine if they should and then I report my finding to Tanemura Sensei because it is ultimately up to his decision.
However, it really doesn't matter because you are not part of the organization. I wish you luck in your search, you might want to think about Manaka's organization, they have a lot of great guys.
All the best,
Troy Wideman
Kevin Geaslin
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One of the things I enjoy most about the Genbukan is the quality control, and the fact that hon-gyaku is the same from dojo to dojo. I also like the fact that everyone doesn't sell their own DVDs and books and host their own large seminars like in other organizations; all the knowledge comes from the Hombu staff or the listed seniors on the website, whose credentials are clearly listed.
Yes, training in a traditional art costs money, but honestly, joining the Genbukan isn't very much. Once you have your membership, gi and patch, you're looking about less than 50 dollars a year. If you can't foot that bill, you probably don't have the gas to drive to a dojo anyways. If you choose to join multiple organizations under the umbrella (Kokusai, Koryu Karate, etc) and choose to buy ryuha DVDs and Shoden manuals and test in sword and bo and go to every Japanese and American and UK Taikai, then you are free to do so, but it costs more.
I can't imagine that anyone training in ninpo would feel "ripped off" by the Kihon Taijutsu manual, which contains more instruction than decades-worth of books by other ninpo authors. But even that is made to accompany proper instruction, or you'll get it all wrong. I even know some Bujinkan practicioners who have made similar books for their dojo, so that new students have some concept of what they need to work on, rather than just doing something new every night. That's fun to do, but doesn't build solid basics.
Yes, training in a traditional art costs money, but honestly, joining the Genbukan isn't very much. Once you have your membership, gi and patch, you're looking about less than 50 dollars a year. If you can't foot that bill, you probably don't have the gas to drive to a dojo anyways. If you choose to join multiple organizations under the umbrella (Kokusai, Koryu Karate, etc) and choose to buy ryuha DVDs and Shoden manuals and test in sword and bo and go to every Japanese and American and UK Taikai, then you are free to do so, but it costs more.
I can't imagine that anyone training in ninpo would feel "ripped off" by the Kihon Taijutsu manual, which contains more instruction than decades-worth of books by other ninpo authors. But even that is made to accompany proper instruction, or you'll get it all wrong. I even know some Bujinkan practicioners who have made similar books for their dojo, so that new students have some concept of what they need to work on, rather than just doing something new every night. That's fun to do, but doesn't build solid basics.
Last edited:
Gary Arthur
White Belt
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- Apr 8, 2007
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Troy Wideman posted
Then if they dont vary then the techniques I learnt in 1994 should be the same as in 2010.
Agreed although I would say that I still practice the kihon in the same vein as the Genbukan. In fact one of the things I have seen missing in other orgs is the fact that many do not have the basics, and a spell in the Genbukan might actually put that right.
This is a plus point for the Genbukan.
I dont have any animosity towards the organisation, theres too much water under the bridge. Apart from the money I sent to Japan I never lost anything, I just think its bizarre that one has to start from the bottom again.
Why not some kind of test?
After all I remember the days when Mr Tanemura was giving out grades like confetti. My own instructor Peter Brown was given 4th dan in genbukan because he was a 4th dan in Bujinkan.
Which kind of makes your point about differences between organisations irrelevant.
I also remember a big hoo haa in Belgium where Mr Tanemura had graded someone to a high grade and the local group leaders were up in arms saying that this person was not worth this grade. And Mr Tanemuras responce was "I have taught him secret Ninja techniques"
I wanted somewhere to go to continue my training. Its as simple as that. But I damn sure aint going to pay to learn to stand in Ichimonji once again.
maybe, maybe not.
It doesnt matter if he started it or not, it still means he is saying that he had a divine message from the gods. Check out Bufu Magazine.
And before we go on lets check out this statement from Amatsu Tatara magazine. In this he is talking about the Tara and the ancient Irish people and the standing stones there. The author of the article Brian O'Dubhaigh says..."We talked about the ancient people who came from Tara from Egypt and Israel, bringing with them sacred stones".
By this I believe he means the standing stones.
Strange though because talking as an archaeologist (BA Degree) I would find it incredible that any archaeologist, geneticist or historian would back up this story.
I'm not even going to go into the part with the white cat and the white horse symbol being a symbol of the archangel.
By the way Newgrange is dated to about 3000 BC which makes the following article about Egyptian settlers from Egypt arriving in 1396 BC from the tribe of Moses and these people bringing with them certain stones a bit of a puzzle. Where does Mr Tanemura get his evidence?
Maybe Mr Tanemura knows something that has evaded all those archaeologistsand historians.
But then this idea is as full of holes as some of his claims regarding the Amatsu Tatara coming from Babylon.
By the way this expansion from Egypt is also not backed up by DNA evidence for the period.
Unfortunately some of these ideas of Stonehenge etc being brought from places like Greece and Egypt tend to be still banded about but were in fact based on the ideas of Piggott, Smith and Vere Gordon Childe the latter of who was a famous Marxist archaeologist. These ideas found favour in the 1930s. Dating techniques have now shown that places like Newgrange and Stonehenge were not based on the pyramids or Greek temples as Stonehenge was started before the Pyramids were built or at least if nothing else they were contemporary.
Just off point a little bit but years ago I learns a secret mantra which a wise man told me to repeat when someone tells me something. Its this...
"WHERES THE EVIDENCE"
Its a good thing to bear in mind when people start telling you about alternative histories.
OK
I have no problem taking my black belt test again, but when I was having sent to me students (To my home and dojo) by the UK leader in the Genbukan at that time for them to learn their black belt grade from me, then you tend to think you might actually be worth that grade.
But even so, even if I was only 1st Kyu (Yep still waiting for that certificate yet graded in scotland with Robert Hanson as my Uke) one would still think that a test might be in order instead of going through it all again.
Thats all i'm saying.
I think it did.
Maybe (See above)
I dont really have any animosity towards tanemura or his organisation, I just feel a little sorry for people that get taken in by these bizarre claims of things like Tara, Amatsu tatara and Miraculous visions. But then some people believe in the Da Vinci code.
Dont quite get what you saying here.
Again i'm not sure where your coming from. Mr Tanemura knows me from old, so are you saying to check out any convictions that type of thing?
Thanks Troy. I'm OK where I am. Good luck with the training.
Regards Garth
Then if they dont vary then the techniques I learnt in 1994 should be the same as in 2010.
Agreed although I would say that I still practice the kihon in the same vein as the Genbukan. In fact one of the things I have seen missing in other orgs is the fact that many do not have the basics, and a spell in the Genbukan might actually put that right.
This is a plus point for the Genbukan.
I dont have any animosity towards the organisation, theres too much water under the bridge. Apart from the money I sent to Japan I never lost anything, I just think its bizarre that one has to start from the bottom again.
Why not some kind of test?
After all I remember the days when Mr Tanemura was giving out grades like confetti. My own instructor Peter Brown was given 4th dan in genbukan because he was a 4th dan in Bujinkan.
Which kind of makes your point about differences between organisations irrelevant.
I also remember a big hoo haa in Belgium where Mr Tanemura had graded someone to a high grade and the local group leaders were up in arms saying that this person was not worth this grade. And Mr Tanemuras responce was "I have taught him secret Ninja techniques"
I wanted somewhere to go to continue my training. Its as simple as that. But I damn sure aint going to pay to learn to stand in Ichimonji once again.
maybe, maybe not.
It doesnt matter if he started it or not, it still means he is saying that he had a divine message from the gods. Check out Bufu Magazine.
And before we go on lets check out this statement from Amatsu Tatara magazine. In this he is talking about the Tara and the ancient Irish people and the standing stones there. The author of the article Brian O'Dubhaigh says..."We talked about the ancient people who came from Tara from Egypt and Israel, bringing with them sacred stones".
By this I believe he means the standing stones.
Strange though because talking as an archaeologist (BA Degree) I would find it incredible that any archaeologist, geneticist or historian would back up this story.
I'm not even going to go into the part with the white cat and the white horse symbol being a symbol of the archangel.
By the way Newgrange is dated to about 3000 BC which makes the following article about Egyptian settlers from Egypt arriving in 1396 BC from the tribe of Moses and these people bringing with them certain stones a bit of a puzzle. Where does Mr Tanemura get his evidence?
Maybe Mr Tanemura knows something that has evaded all those archaeologistsand historians.
But then this idea is as full of holes as some of his claims regarding the Amatsu Tatara coming from Babylon.
By the way this expansion from Egypt is also not backed up by DNA evidence for the period.
Unfortunately some of these ideas of Stonehenge etc being brought from places like Greece and Egypt tend to be still banded about but were in fact based on the ideas of Piggott, Smith and Vere Gordon Childe the latter of who was a famous Marxist archaeologist. These ideas found favour in the 1930s. Dating techniques have now shown that places like Newgrange and Stonehenge were not based on the pyramids or Greek temples as Stonehenge was started before the Pyramids were built or at least if nothing else they were contemporary.
Just off point a little bit but years ago I learns a secret mantra which a wise man told me to repeat when someone tells me something. Its this...
"WHERES THE EVIDENCE"
Its a good thing to bear in mind when people start telling you about alternative histories.
OK
I have no problem taking my black belt test again, but when I was having sent to me students (To my home and dojo) by the UK leader in the Genbukan at that time for them to learn their black belt grade from me, then you tend to think you might actually be worth that grade.
But even so, even if I was only 1st Kyu (Yep still waiting for that certificate yet graded in scotland with Robert Hanson as my Uke) one would still think that a test might be in order instead of going through it all again.
Thats all i'm saying.
I think it did.
Maybe (See above)
I dont really have any animosity towards tanemura or his organisation, I just feel a little sorry for people that get taken in by these bizarre claims of things like Tara, Amatsu tatara and Miraculous visions. But then some people believe in the Da Vinci code.
Dont quite get what you saying here.
Again i'm not sure where your coming from. Mr Tanemura knows me from old, so are you saying to check out any convictions that type of thing?
Thanks Troy. I'm OK where I am. Good luck with the training.
Regards Garth
Last edited:
Troy Wideman
Green Belt
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2009
- Messages
- 103
- Reaction score
- 7
Hi Gary,
As you stated it was in 1994, and it is now 2010, and you have been doing different things. Therefore, this is why quality control should kick in. Things change in any organization over time and 16 years is a long time to think you can just pop back in at your same rank.
As I said, it would not necessarily mean starting from the bottom but having someone that is qualified viewing all your techniques to make sure they are fine. I have to constantly ensure that everyone in Canada is sticking to the curriculum because people forget and write their notes wrong. Things in 1994, were a lot different in the Genbukan than today. There might have been a time when honorary ranks were given out in the Genbukan but I know that was not from 1993 on. However, it was done for the jujutsu at one time but that stopped because of all the problems it created. Which it obviously created with your old teacher. So it does not make my point irrelevant because 1994 and 2010 is more then a decade in difference.
Now your quoting heresay about the issue in Belgium. What seminar, who told you that etc. Not that I really care, so I am not sure why you are bringing it up.
Inrelation to the bufu message, sometimes things can be misconstrued and lost in translation and this happens all the time. But why are you bringing this up if you do not have animosity towards our organization.
Inrelation to the Amatsu Tatara, I really can't comment on it to a great extent because I have not studied it in great detail. However, I say again, why is someone's ideas of a system that you know nothing about bothering you. Again I say, this points that you have a hidden agenda and have some animosity towards the Genbukan.
Inrelation to you been sent students to train for their black belt, this sounds strange to me. I would have to look into it. This would not happen in the US or Canada and it should not happen in the UK but again I would have to dig into what you are saying and I try not to dig into other countries politics because I have enough issues of my own to deal with.
In relation to me saying I would investigate the person. I mean I would do an internet search and call them on anything they said about the organization to me. Its easy to spout off on the internet, much harder to do it face to face. I would also check their martial art history etc. I would also get permission to run a criminal records check. If they decline, they don't join, simple as that. I take pride in the Canadian Genbukan and we have no issues. Everyone is friends and trains hard and I will not have a wanker "sorry for a lack of a better description" come into our group and ruin what we have built. It is ultimately up to Tanemura Sensei but I usually do a thorough investigation.
Inrelation to Tanemura Sensei knowing you from old, I would say he made a good decision with the way you are talking about the organization. You would have brought these feelings into the organization and caused issues. You obviously have been keeping these things on the back burner since 1994. Therefore, I again say you have an animosity to the organization and it was a good thing you didn't join, for the organization and you.
Again this message is not with any malice, I have never met you before and I can only go with the words that you type on the internet. I can tell you that from the short conversation we are having I wouldn't want you part of the organization in Canada. I don't mean to be mean by saying that but it is just fact. You obviously have issues with Tanemura Sensei, so it would not have been a good fit.
I am curious, why did you leave Toshindo?
Anyways, I have spent way to much time on this but it was an interest conversation.
I wish you the best with what ever direction you decide. If you are up in Canada ever, drop me a line and we will gladly sit down and have a guiness.
Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman
As you stated it was in 1994, and it is now 2010, and you have been doing different things. Therefore, this is why quality control should kick in. Things change in any organization over time and 16 years is a long time to think you can just pop back in at your same rank.
As I said, it would not necessarily mean starting from the bottom but having someone that is qualified viewing all your techniques to make sure they are fine. I have to constantly ensure that everyone in Canada is sticking to the curriculum because people forget and write their notes wrong. Things in 1994, were a lot different in the Genbukan than today. There might have been a time when honorary ranks were given out in the Genbukan but I know that was not from 1993 on. However, it was done for the jujutsu at one time but that stopped because of all the problems it created. Which it obviously created with your old teacher. So it does not make my point irrelevant because 1994 and 2010 is more then a decade in difference.
Now your quoting heresay about the issue in Belgium. What seminar, who told you that etc. Not that I really care, so I am not sure why you are bringing it up.
Inrelation to the bufu message, sometimes things can be misconstrued and lost in translation and this happens all the time. But why are you bringing this up if you do not have animosity towards our organization.
Inrelation to the Amatsu Tatara, I really can't comment on it to a great extent because I have not studied it in great detail. However, I say again, why is someone's ideas of a system that you know nothing about bothering you. Again I say, this points that you have a hidden agenda and have some animosity towards the Genbukan.
Inrelation to you been sent students to train for their black belt, this sounds strange to me. I would have to look into it. This would not happen in the US or Canada and it should not happen in the UK but again I would have to dig into what you are saying and I try not to dig into other countries politics because I have enough issues of my own to deal with.
In relation to me saying I would investigate the person. I mean I would do an internet search and call them on anything they said about the organization to me. Its easy to spout off on the internet, much harder to do it face to face. I would also check their martial art history etc. I would also get permission to run a criminal records check. If they decline, they don't join, simple as that. I take pride in the Canadian Genbukan and we have no issues. Everyone is friends and trains hard and I will not have a wanker "sorry for a lack of a better description" come into our group and ruin what we have built. It is ultimately up to Tanemura Sensei but I usually do a thorough investigation.
Inrelation to Tanemura Sensei knowing you from old, I would say he made a good decision with the way you are talking about the organization. You would have brought these feelings into the organization and caused issues. You obviously have been keeping these things on the back burner since 1994. Therefore, I again say you have an animosity to the organization and it was a good thing you didn't join, for the organization and you.
Again this message is not with any malice, I have never met you before and I can only go with the words that you type on the internet. I can tell you that from the short conversation we are having I wouldn't want you part of the organization in Canada. I don't mean to be mean by saying that but it is just fact. You obviously have issues with Tanemura Sensei, so it would not have been a good fit.
I am curious, why did you leave Toshindo?
Anyways, I have spent way to much time on this but it was an interest conversation.
I wish you the best with what ever direction you decide. If you are up in Canada ever, drop me a line and we will gladly sit down and have a guiness.
Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman
Gary Arthur
White Belt
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2007
- Messages
- 14
- Reaction score
- 0
Hi Troy
You posted
Hi Gary,
Maybe, I just cant understand why theres not a test instead. But its tanemuras organisation he can do what he wants.
I was there. I sat on the table having dinner with Mr Tanemura when it was brought up by the group instructors.
Just saying that its not always that people start from the bottom.
Because I hate people being led astray by superstition and bull, and this seems to me like complete bull.
Because when people say things about history that are not based on any evidence and in fact go contrary to the scientific findings its often that they are again talking from a position of ignorance.
The only agenda I have, and its not hidden is against people that speak from positions of authority with any understanding of what they are talking about.
Oh it happened.
I'll PM you on Monday.
Good idea.
As I said, the techniques in the organisation are superb, its just some of the things that go with it, i.e. the wild claims.
Now maybe Mr Tanemura has been lucky in me not joining although last year the door was held open for me.
Is this because i question the teachings of the Amatsu Tatara?
Sorry Troy your beginning to sound like a creationist who would have us believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and any one that disagrees is a trouble maker.
Surely Troy doubt and questioning is a good thing, or maybe you want your students to accept blindly what your sensei says.
I hold no malice against Mr Tanemura if thats what you mean, just that I would question some of the historical claims he makes.
Best regards Troy
Garth
You posted
Hi Gary,
Maybe, I just cant understand why theres not a test instead. But its tanemuras organisation he can do what he wants.
I was there. I sat on the table having dinner with Mr Tanemura when it was brought up by the group instructors.
Just saying that its not always that people start from the bottom.
Because I hate people being led astray by superstition and bull, and this seems to me like complete bull.
Because when people say things about history that are not based on any evidence and in fact go contrary to the scientific findings its often that they are again talking from a position of ignorance.
The only agenda I have, and its not hidden is against people that speak from positions of authority with any understanding of what they are talking about.
Oh it happened.
I'll PM you on Monday.
Good idea.
As I said, the techniques in the organisation are superb, its just some of the things that go with it, i.e. the wild claims.
Now maybe Mr Tanemura has been lucky in me not joining although last year the door was held open for me.
Is this because i question the teachings of the Amatsu Tatara?
Sorry Troy your beginning to sound like a creationist who would have us believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and any one that disagrees is a trouble maker.
Surely Troy doubt and questioning is a good thing, or maybe you want your students to accept blindly what your sensei says.
I hold no malice against Mr Tanemura if thats what you mean, just that I would question some of the historical claims he makes.
Best regards Troy
Garth
Gary Arthur
White Belt
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2007
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- 14
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- 0
Troy just to put my concerns in point to you, heres something I posted on Martial arts planet just over 2 years ago...
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52840&highlight=amatsu&page=4
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52840&highlight=amatsu&page=4
Troy Wideman
Green Belt
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2009
- Messages
- 103
- Reaction score
- 7
Hi Gary,
As I said to you already, I cannot comment much on the amatsu tatara because I do not follow it. It takes me enough effort to just try and finish the ryu ha that I am licenced in.
You are welcome to speculate but you have not seen the scrolls as I have not. So I can't answer your concerns about the amatsu tatara with any authority. If you have some questions the shibu cho in Ireland might be able to shed some more light. Just remember what is science today, can be proven wrong tomorrow. If you would have told someone 60 years ago that we would have had some of the technology we have today, they would have laughed at you. Geez, if you would have said we would be paying $5 for a coffee at starbucks people would have had a heart attack.
No I did not state that I would not accept you because you are questioning the Amatsu Tatara because I really don't care. I do not really follow it and do not have the information to have an intelligent arguement. I would base my decision on your lack of trust in Tanemura Sensei and the organization. Doing a search shows alot. I am not saying your are a bad guy because I really haven't dug to deep into your background. I would base this just on what I feel is a lack of respect to my teacher. Again this would be my decision and I would pass my feelings onto Tanemura Sensei. As I said, maybe this is what transpired but I really don't know. Anyways, enough chatting about Amatsu Tatara because you are looking for a silver bullet and I cannot give you one. Good luck in your searching because I doubt anyone even in the Genbukan can give you the answers other then the shihan or of course Tanemura Sensei. Since you are not in the organization I doubt you will get the chance to ask your questions.
PS: By the way, what is a creationist, hahahha. Guess I'm not one.
I look forward to your PM.
Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman
As I said to you already, I cannot comment much on the amatsu tatara because I do not follow it. It takes me enough effort to just try and finish the ryu ha that I am licenced in.
You are welcome to speculate but you have not seen the scrolls as I have not. So I can't answer your concerns about the amatsu tatara with any authority. If you have some questions the shibu cho in Ireland might be able to shed some more light. Just remember what is science today, can be proven wrong tomorrow. If you would have told someone 60 years ago that we would have had some of the technology we have today, they would have laughed at you. Geez, if you would have said we would be paying $5 for a coffee at starbucks people would have had a heart attack.
No I did not state that I would not accept you because you are questioning the Amatsu Tatara because I really don't care. I do not really follow it and do not have the information to have an intelligent arguement. I would base my decision on your lack of trust in Tanemura Sensei and the organization. Doing a search shows alot. I am not saying your are a bad guy because I really haven't dug to deep into your background. I would base this just on what I feel is a lack of respect to my teacher. Again this would be my decision and I would pass my feelings onto Tanemura Sensei. As I said, maybe this is what transpired but I really don't know. Anyways, enough chatting about Amatsu Tatara because you are looking for a silver bullet and I cannot give you one. Good luck in your searching because I doubt anyone even in the Genbukan can give you the answers other then the shihan or of course Tanemura Sensei. Since you are not in the organization I doubt you will get the chance to ask your questions.
PS: By the way, what is a creationist, hahahha. Guess I'm not one.
I look forward to your PM.
Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman
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