Taking the Martial out of the Art.....

[Tez3]

Actually, the word MARTIAL in martial arts has a lot to do with it being an "army" typed based of combat training.
And how each instructor teaches/disciplines their students is totally up to them. You teach/would teach a different way?....bravo to you! But your critique of my instructor telling me do 50 pushups is no different than my story about the BJJ/MMA school that I went to in which I had a bad experience at, at which you had so much to say about how I shouldn't say something "negative" about a school without naming it.

If you want, I can provide you with the defintiion of a hypocrite if you like.....because that is now MY opinion of YOU! It seems that you are quick to the draw to "call people out" on wether or not someone is credible or not because of their "negative comments", as you so eloquently put it, about a school, yet you do the same exact thing in your own, non-subtle way.

My critique? because I asked you a question? Oh my, not very defensive are you? I take it you don't like being asked questions.

I haven't 'called' anyone out, I've asked questions you don't want to answer, fine but don't see aggression in me that is in you. You are the one with the sarcastic remarks about posters here not me. You see in my posts something that's not there, you are putting there as you did with Steves posts.

I don't have an opinion of you, I haven't expressed one, you are name calling not I. I asked you a few questions, you could answer politely instead of taking umbrage.

I don't feel any need to make my students do 50 press ups because they do a technique wrong or because they ask a question, why would I? They won't fight in the cage any better for it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There's a major cultural divide in the martial arts regarding the meaning of "respect" and "discipline."

On one hand you have an approach which is very rooted in an hiearchical view of the world. For this camp, respect and discipline are reflected in such things as formality, titles, unquestioned obedience of seniors, doing pushups as punishment, shouting "sir", etc, etc. Some of this may go back to traditional cultural values built around Confucianism, which is all about the hiearchies. Some of it may go back to instructors who originally learned in the military and who continue that tradition. Some of it may relate to instructors who have a need for ego gratification. (These categories are not mutually exclusive.)

There is another school of thought that says you respect each person you train with for stepping on the mat and you also respect them for the abilities and behavior they exhibit - but this doesn't have anything to do with formality or titles. No one at my gym calls my BJJ instructor "sir" or "sensei", but I guarantee we all respect him. You show discipline by driving yourself to train hard and safely. Pushups are for conditioning, not punishment.

This second approach is the one that feels right for me. It seems like a more authentic way to relate to other human beings. However, there are a lot of people who feel that they get a lot more out of the first approach. I'm not about to tell them they're wrong as long as they're happy with the experience.

 

[Tez3]

Mind you Tez, adults generally stop acting un-disciplined after one correction. Its not an everyday thing.
Sean

So asking a question is being undisciplined? I have probably the most disciplined in nearly all aspects of their lives students going, why would I make them do press ups because they do a technique wrong or ask a question? If they get a bit boisterous a word will stop them, it does when I'm reffing in the cage as well, I ref pro rules male MMA and it does in training. My students have been trained, not by me but by the same process I was trained to have good self dicipline.

 

[Tez3]

There's a major cultural divide in the martial arts regarding the meaning of "respect" and "discipline."

On one hand you have an approach which is very rooted in an hiearchical view of the world. For this camp, respect and discipline are reflected in such things as formality, titles, unquestioned obedience of seniors, doing pushups as punishment, shouting "sir", etc, etc. Some of this may go back to traditional cultural values built around Confucianism, which is all about the hiearchies. Some of it may go back to instructors who originally learned in the military and who continue that tradition. Some of it may relate to instructors who have a need for ego gratification. (These categories are not mutually exclusive.)

There is another school of thought that says you respect each person you train with for stepping on the mat and you also respect them for the abilities and behavior they exhibit - but this doesn't have anything to do with formality or titles. No one at my gym calls my BJJ instructor "sir" or "sensei", but I guarantee we all respect him. You show discipline by driving yourself to train hard and safely. Pushups are for conditioning, not punishment.

This second approach is the one that feels right for me. It seems like a more authentic way to relate to other human beings. However, there are a lot of people who feel that they get a lot more out of the first approach. I'm not about to tell them they're wrong as long as they're happy with the experience.

Well said! That's exactly how I feel. My question, not a comment on the poster's school, was did he feel it appropriate to discipline with 50 sit ups, a polite answer may have meant he was a believer in the former not the latter as you and I do. That's what I was looking for.

 

[Touch Of Death]

My critique? because I asked you a question? Oh my, not very defensive are you? I take it you don't like being asked questions.

I haven't 'called' anyone out, I've asked questions you don't want to answer, fine but don't see aggression in me that is in you. You are the one with the sarcastic remarks about posters here not me. You see in my posts something that's not there, you are putting there as you did with Steves posts.

I don't have an opinion of you, I haven't expressed one, you are name calling not I. I asked you a few questions, you could answer politely instead of taking umbrage.

I don't feel any need to make my students do 50 press ups because they do a technique wrong or because they ask a question, why would I? They won't fight in the cage any better for it.

Umbrage is a very cool word. However, learning from another person requires some discipline, People are mostly prepped by being in school as children; so, I am guessing you don't accept just anyone in your school. It sounds as if you expect it, and don't believe respect should be taught by the teachers. You make a one time only correction sound like crime, but it really is just about knowing when to ask questions and when to just shut up. You remember school, right?
Sean

 

[harlan]

It's all about context, and shared values. Spoken and unspoken. A generous training atmosphere recognizes that the newbie must be informed of expectations and rules and does it without ripping him/her a new one.

Works for forums too.

So asking a question is being undisciplined? I have probably the most disciplined in nearly all aspects of their lives students going, why would I make them do press ups because they do a technique wrong or ask a question? If they get a bit boisterous a word will stop them, it does when I'm reffing in the cage as well, I ref pro rules male MMA and it does in training. My students have been trained, not by me but by the same process I was trained to have good self dicipline.

 

[Tez3]

Umbrage is a very cool word. However, learning from another person requires some discipline, People are mostly prepped by being in school as children; so, I am guessing you don't accept just anyone in your school. It sounds as if you expect it, and don't believe respect should be taught by the teachers. You make a one time only correction sound like crime, but it really is just about knowing when to ask questions and when to just shut up. You remember school, right?
Sean

We take anyone in our classes. Respect, ah now there's a thing. Do you expect respect just because you are an instructor?

We take people into our classes who have come to learn so the willingness on their part is already there. They don't need 'discipline' to learn, they want to learn already, we aren't a compulsory club like school, no one has to come to classes therefore those that do are attentive,keen, willing and wanting to try their best. They also pay for their lessons so they have the right to be taught in the best way we can, if they want to know something they will be told it. We aren't a business but when people are paying with their hard earned cash they deserve being treated like adults. They have common sense they know when to ask and when to wait. If they do ask at the 'wrong' time, then as I said a quick word will suffice ie 'hang on a minute mate and I'll tell you'. Adultspeak.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It's all about context, and shared values. Spoken and unspoken. A generous training atmosphere recognizes that the newbie must be informed of expectations and rules and does it without ripping him/her a new one.

Works for forums too.

Push-ups are not a new one. Just saying

 

[harlan]

Yes.

Respect, ah now there's a thing. Do you expect respect just because you are an instructor?

 

[Touch Of Death]

They don't need 'discipline' to learn

You understand, don't you, that learning requires discipline? I mean in its most basic meaning. You can't be corrected if you don't accept the correction kind of thing. That stern word, you mentioned that is all adults need, was disciplining, and it works because they have been conditioned to accept it. As for expecting respect, I can't teach someone that won't listen. See how that works.
Sean

 

[Tez3]

Yes.

Why? do you have automatic respect for a poor instructor just because he/she has a black belt?

Respect has to be earned even for an instructor. You don't have to disrespect someone but you need to see what qualities they have before you can respect them. I would say though that respect isn't the right word in this context, I think we are meaning something else. Respect is a big thing, not to be given lightly, however one can be civil, polite, regardful of ones instructor rather than respect. I suspect this may be a cultural difference in meaning, when you say repsect I think you mean be polite to etc. We tend to mean respect as in respecting a war hero for his bravery, a great person for his humanity etc.

 

[harlan]

I don't choose to train with poor instructors.

I expect respect from a potential student even before they have met me - because that is the only kind of student I will accept. I provide the environment and the knowledge and am responsible for what goes on in the dojo and don't have time to deal with people on ego-trips, or deficient in social skills or intellect.

Again, as I referenced earlier, it has much to do with context. There is this concept of 'rei' in karate, and lip-service to it is only cheating one's self in training.

Why? do you have automatic respect for a poor instructor just because he/she has a black belt?

Respect has to be earned even for an instructor. You don't have to disrespect someone but you need to see what qualities they have before you can respect them. I would say though that respect isn't the right word in this context, I think we are meaning something else. Respect is a big thing, not to be given lightly, however one can be civil, polite, regardful of ones instructor rather than respect. I suspect this may be a culteral differencein meaning, when you say repsect I think you mean be polite to etc. We tend to mean respect as in respecting a war hero for his bravery, a great person for his humanity etc.

 

[Tez3]

You understand, don't you, that learning requires discipline? I mean in its most basic meaning. You can't be corrected if you don't accept the correction kind of thing. That stern word, you mentioned that is all adults need, was disciplining, and it works because they have been conditioned to accept it. As for expecting respect, I can't teach someone that won't listen. See how that works.
Sean

And I've already told you that my students are disciplined already!

Not listening isn't lack of respect, it's rudeness.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Why? do you have automatic respect for a poor instructor just because he/she has a black belt?

Respect has to be earned even for an instructor. You don't have to disrespect someone but you need to see what qualities they have before you can respect them. I would say though that respect isn't the right word in this context, I think we are meaning something else. Respect is a big thing, not to be given lightly, however one can be civil, polite, regardful of ones instructor rather than respect. I suspect this may be a cultural difference in meaning, when you say repsect I think you mean be polite to etc. We tend to mean respect as in respecting a war hero for his bravery, a great person for his humanity etc.

The ability to show respect, is more important than, feeling it. LOL

 

[Tez3]

I don't choose to train with poor instructors.

I expect respect from a potential student even before they have met me - because that is the only kind of student I will accept. I provide the environment and the knowledge and am responsible for what goes on in the dojo and don't have time to deal with people on ego-trips, or deficient in social skills or intellect.

As I said I think we we look at 'respect' in a different way. To me you want politeness, regard for what you do and good behaviour, to me that's not respect. To me to respect someone is to honour them. I don't expect to be honoured as an instructor, if I gain respect ie honour from my students then that is different from expecting them to be polite and well behaved which I do. As I said perhaps it's cultural, in more ways than just Uk v the US, I think it has overtones of East v West as well.

 

[Touch Of Death]

And I've already told you that my students are disciplined already!

Not listening isn't lack of respect, it's rudeness.

No, not listening indicates a lack of discipline. This is the kind of thing that gets people punched in the face. You may take it as rudeness and react accordingly, and some recognize it as a learning disability. Rudeness in and of itself, is showing disrespect. Honest! We are talking about levels of competence here.
Sean

 

[Tez3]

The ability to show respect, is more important than, feeling it. LOL

As I've just answered harlan, to respect someone is to honour them, I don't expect honour but do expect politeness and good behaviour that which you call respect. Respect to us is what is reserved for people who are brave/show great character under hard circumstances etc etc.

 

[Touch Of Death]

As I said I think we we look at 'respect' in a different way. To me you want politeness, regard for what you do and good behaviour, to me that's not respect. To me to respect someone is to honour them. I don't expect to be honoured as an instructor, if I gain respect ie honour from my students then that is different from expecting them to be polite and well behaved which I do. As I said perhaps it's cultural, in more ways than just Uk v the US, I think it has overtones of East v West as well.

Perhaps it would help if you realized there are more definitions for the term, than honoring war heroes.
sean

 

[harlan]

FYI: I was adding to my post/editing during your reply and see that it addresses your comment.

 

[Tez3]

No, not listening indicates a lack of discipline. This is the kind of thing that gets people punched in the face. You may take it as rudeness and react accordingly, and some recognize it as a learning disability. Rudeness in and of itself, is showing disrespect. Honest! We are talking about levels of competence here.
Sean

I've often heard on American programmes someone in a paddy shouting 'you've disrespected (more likely 'dissed') me', that's not how we see it, we don't use the word respect in that context. We are talking at cross purposes here I'm afraid.