Striking, Sparring and CTE

[FriedRice]

Do you have some links backing up the idea that all these gyms are in favor of concussions during training

Wait, what? You are asking that professional gyms at the highest level, state...in print....that they "favor concussions during training"?????? C'mon man, WTH?

or giving beginners serious concussions during their first sparring session?

And you want this in print too? LOL. And even though I didn't say BEGINNERS spar hard, in my post....but I guess you've never trained at an old school Boxing gym.

I know the Miletich gym was notorious for treating sparring sessions like real fights and having fighters get concussed regularly during training. I wonder if they still stick to that approach. Personally I'm more in favor of John Kavanagh's approach: "Upgrade the software without damaging the hardware." I think his fighters have shown that to be at least as effective an approach as the alternative.

I'm not sure about Miletich's gym now neither. They seemed to have become much less significant since their hayday back then. While all the gyms I listed, are known for going hard. There are quite a few videos on YouTube.

Like I said, I agree with your, opinion, on how hard to spar which is basically Kavangh's model that I agree with.....but I'm not going to tell top gyms of the world that produces champions, that they're wrong when it is working for them for 10+ years now.

Head KO (both the one I received and the one I delivered.)

Nice.

Nope, but the implication seemed to be that concussions should be at least a semi-regular aspect of training. Unless you were just advocating concussions for first timers, which seems more like hazing than productive training.

Nope, I didn't mean to say any of this. Maybe you just misunderstood and/or I wasn't clear enough, so my bad. But the hazing DOES HAPPEN, since you brought it up....especially in old school Boxing gyms.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There is an interesting conundrum for martial artists. Training with greater realism, fewer restrictions, higher intensity and contact levels can definitely lead to a higher degree of combative skill and martial understanding.

On the other hand, many of us see the martial arts as a vehicle for self-protection. If you damage yourself more in training than a theoretical real world assailant would be likely to, have you really protected yourself? At a certain point it's almost like protecting yourself from financial scammers by locking all your money in a safe and then dropping the safe into the bottom of the ocean.

Every martial artist has to decide for themselves where they draw that line.

For myself I've opted to risk the occasional mild to moderate injury - bumps, bruises, a dislocated shoulder, a few broken bones, a few mild concussions spread out over years - while steering clear of anything that will produce permanent disability. I want to still be training martial arts when I am 80 years old, not trying to remember my wife's name when I'm 60 or struggling to walk without pain.

I am grateful to those who take greater risks with their bodies so that I can study what they do and what they've learned. I can watch Dog Brothers gatherings and high-level MMA fights to see what technical details their explorations have brought to light about what works under pressure.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Nope, I didn't mean to say any of this. Maybe you just misunderstood and/or I wasn't clear enough, so my bad.

And even though I didn't say BEGINNERS spar hard, in my post

I guess I was going off the idea that someone who is having their first hard sparring session ever would still be a beginner. At what point in a student's progression do you think they should have their first hard contact sparring? How often do you think concussions should happen during fighter training?

Wait, what? You are asking that professional gyms at the highest level, state...in print....that they "favor concussions during training"?????? C'mon man, WTH?

Is your objection to the fact that I don't automatically assume that they do or to the idea that they would publicly admit it?

I'd settle for a description of the general training environment which makes clear that the concussions happen regularly and the trainers are fine with it. There are plenty of accounts of the Miletich gym which make it clear they considered concussions to be a feature not a bug.

but I guess you've never trained at an old school Boxing gym.

I guess my first ever boxing gym was fairly old school. They put me in the ring with someone who pushed me out of my comfort zone and hit me hard enough to make me wobbly but not really hurt me.

Since then I've trained with a couple of amateur coaches, an experienced pro coach, and one 2x world champion. The world champion does advocate for really hard sparring, but I've noticed that his priority in training students is to build a really, really strong defense first so they don't get hit very often when they get to the point of sparring hard.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Interesting. Not to brag or anything, but I can go 70-100% speed....esp. with jabs, at a 10 year old's face and make contact with just a touch, when sparring. Ok, that was bragging....or maybe I'm just not that fast. Haven't knocked anyone out yet in the past 5 years.

For me I can't do that. Depending on the punch that I use its like trying go 70-100% with a bat and stopping it so that it touches a child's face. If that child steps forward when you don't expect it then you'll have a major problem. I have 2 videos showing how my opponent did something unexpectedly which resulted in either a bad out come or a near miss where I knocked his head gear off.

It's just not a risk I want to take to go that fast and trust that my partner wont make a mistake and move in. I worked with another instructor who would do what you do and he was always injuring the demo student.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is an interesting conundrum for martial artists. Training with greater realism, fewer restrictions, higher intensity and contact levels can definitely lead to a higher degree of combative skill and martial understanding.

On the other hand, many of us see the martial arts as a vehicle for self-protection. If you damage yourself more in training than a theoretical real world assailant would be likely to, have you really protected yourself? At a certain point it's almost like protecting yourself from financial scammers by locking all your money in a safe and then dropping the safe into the bottom of the ocean.

Every martial artist has to decide for themselves where they draw that line.

For myself I've opted to risk the occasional mild to moderate injury - bumps, bruises, a dislocated shoulder, a few broken bones, a few mild concussions spread out over years - while steering clear of anything that will produce permanent disability. I want to still be training martial arts when I am 80 years old, not trying to remember my wife's name when I'm 60 or struggling to walk without pain.

I am grateful to those who take greater risks with their bodies so that I can study what they do and what they've learned. I can watch Dog Brothers gatherings and high-level MMA fights to see what technical details their explorations have brought to light about what works under pressure.

Not sure why people would do professional level sparring intensity when they have no plans to compete at that level.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Not sure why people would do professional level sparring intensity when they have no plans to compete at that level.

Most don't, but there's a huge continuum between, say, no-contact training and Dog Brothers style sparring full contact with heavy sticks and minimal protective gear. We all have to decide how good we want to be and how much risk we are willing to endure for that goal.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do you mean higher intensity, with the matching of power? Like going from 35% power & speed to 70-80% power & speed?

Yes. That's what I'm referring to. The way I spar is that I always drive and connect power. I only separate speed and power in forms. With sparring I always train the connection of power even at lower speeds because it more complicated and complex compared to everything else I do.

I know everyone is different so this just applies to me.

 

[Headhunter]

Yeah I get it, you're afraid of being hit in the face for real as apart of training. Krav Maga is the right place for you.

You seem very insecure in yourself

 

[pdg]

Don't want to, does not = not able to or not afraid to.

While being afraid of getting hit in the face hard = not being able to due to fear.

Therefore, a higher level of training, MMA, which you fear. While I don't fear kata, I just didn't care to waste more of my time with it. And yes, I've been through kata/forms in TKD and also Shaolin Kung-Fu ( a little), but you've never sparred hard for KO's as apart of training on a regular basis, due ot fear.

I'd really like to know exactly what qualifies you to judge what I am (or not) afraid of.

Because, y'know, that type of assumption just makes you look like a tit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There are plenty of accounts of the Miletich gym which make it clear they considered concussions to be a feature not a bug.

I've had a concussion before. It's definitely not a training feature. lol
1. It hurt really bad. "head hit gym floor"
2. Kept trying to go to sleep.
3. Had periods of blacking out.
4. Threw up a lot
5. Had to go to the hospital.
6. Because it happened to me as a child, it caused trauma. As a teen I relived the experience via a dream. Now it's one of my strongest memories.

I couldn't imagine having to go through some of these things multiple times throughout the year. I think that risk would make me more agressive to the point that I would rather give my sparring partner a concussion just so I wouldn't get one. Then again. I'm not a professional fighter. I can't fight in the ring if I'm always recovering from head injuries f t om training.

 

[FriedRice]

I'd really like to know exactly what qualifies you to judge what I am (or not) afraid of.

Because, y'know, that type of assumption just makes you look like a tit.

You admitted to being scared of getting CTE and concussions, duh.

 

[FriedRice]

You seem very insecure in yourself

You admitted to being scared of getting CTE and concussions, so you train Krav Maga because you're afraid of the hard sparring in MMA. Just going by what you posted, babe.

 

[Headhunter]

You admitted to being scared of getting CTE and concussions, so you train Krav Maga because you're afraid of the hard sparring in MMA. Just going by what you posted, babe.

Oh go away would you. You've purposefully ignored the fact where I said I competed in full contact fighting for over 10 years. I do Krav Maga now because I think it's better than those styles get over it and get over yourself

 

[FriedRice]

For me I can't do that. Depending on the punch that I use its like trying go 70-100% with a bat and stopping it so that it touches a child's face. If that child steps forward when you don't expect it then you'll have a major problem. I have 2 videos showing how my opponent did something unexpectedly which resulted in either a bad out come or a near miss where I knocked his head gear off.

It's just not a risk I want to take to go that fast and trust that my partner wont make a mistake and move in. I worked with another instructor who would do what you do and he was always injuring the demo student.

True about when they walk into it, being a danger. This happens somewhat often. I haven't KO'ed a kid yet though. I spar like this against them often. The more timid/fearful kids would rather spar vs. me than other kids, because then, the shots are real and they get down. These kids would beg me to spar with them instead of sparring vs. other kids their size b/c there's no pain vs. me.

 

[FriedRice]

I guess I was going off the idea that someone who is having their first hard sparring session ever would still be a beginner. At what point in a student's progression do you think they should have their first hard contact sparring?

It just depends on what you define as a beginner. Someone brand new, training 3x/week can usually get their 1st fight in 6-12 months, by our standards. They're going to get some hard sparring 1 month before the fight to leave room for recovery should something bad happens. This could be their 1st hard sparring session after 5 months of training. Whether they're a beginner or intermediate, just depends on how your gym is run.

How often do you think concussions should happen during fighter training?

It depends. Concussions have their ranges. I know my head very well, and knows when my bell has been rung light, medium, serious, etc. I know when to quit for the day and when to quit for many months. Like I said, I subscribe to the way McGregor's camp trains....."touching butt in the park"--Nate Diaz and you do too, hahah. But AKA don't. Neither does TAM, ATA, Mayweather Club and probably 95% of all Boxing gyms.

I think that light concussions would be ok during fight training. But the truth is, most dudes would still not pull out of their fight, even with a serious concussion from fight camp. And usually, nobody can figure out if they're too ****ed up to

Is your objection to the fact that I don't automatically assume that they do or to the idea that they would publicly admit it?

I'd settle for a description of the general training environment which makes clear that the concussions happen regularly and the trainers are fine with it. There are plenty of accounts of the Miletich gym which make it clear they considered concussions to be a feature not a bug.

I remember hearing Miletich talk about this on Joe Rogan's podcast, but it would be crazy as hell for any gym to put it in print what you asked. That's like saying, please come sue us, take our business and all of our assets....should something bad happens.

I guess my first ever boxing gym was fairly old school. They put me in the ring with someone who pushed me out of my comfort zone and hit me hard enough to make me wobbly but not really hurt me.

If he hit you hard enough to make you wobbly while you were a Beginner, then this goes against most of the things that you've been trying to tell me that shouldn't be done.

I would never hit a Beginner that hard unless I really disliked the hell out of him....and this happened about once in the last 5 years...and he was an intermediate and I only hit him with 2 hard shots that he def. felt.....because he went straight to war on me. But see? You proved my point, this common in Boxing gyms. You chose to call it "put me out of my comfort zone".....but basically, it was some dude cracking the hell out of you but stopping short of putting you down, because he's a nice guy.

 

[FriedRice]

Oh go away would you. You've purposefully ignored the fact where I said I competed in full contact fighting for over 10 years. I do Krav Maga now because I think it's better than those styles get over it and get over yourself

Yet you admitted to being afraid of CTE and concussions? Full contact must mean something entirely different to you then, lol.

 

[pdg]

You admitted to being scared of getting CTE and concussions, duh.

I would like you to show me, using the quote function, exactly where I said that.

 

[FriedRice]

I would like you to show me, using the quote function, exactly where I said that.

I don't feel like re-reading the entire thread.

So do you spar hard at full power for head knockouts as apart of training in whatever it is that you train? Not all the time, but sometimes....do you?

 

[Headhunter]

Yet you admitted to being afraid of CTE and concussions? Full contact must mean something entirely different to you then, lol.

Where did I say I'm scared of it boy? This was my first post on this thread.

"At the end of the day there's always going to be risks...hell there's risk of heading a football causing brain damage. But at the end of the day what's the point in worrying. It might happen it might not. There are people who smoke for 50 years and have no complications. You could get hit in the head a million times and be fine or you could get hit in the head 50 times and get it. That's life. Life isn't fair, life doesn't make sense why worry about it? I've taken a lot of punches over the years I feel fine my memories good enough I talk fine, I spell fine. Worrying isn't going to change what happens to my brain now. All worrying will do is stress me and that can make your head worse."

 

[FriedRice]

Where did I say I'm scared of it boy? This was my first post on this thread.

"At the end of the day there's always going to be risks...hell there's risk of heading a football causing brain damage. But at the end of the day what's the point in worrying. It might happen it might not. There are people who smoke for 50 years and have no complications. You could get hit in the head a million times and be fine or you could get hit in the head 50 times and get it. That's life. Life isn't fair, life doesn't make sense why worry about it? I've taken a lot of punches over the years I feel fine my memories good enough I talk fine, I spell fine. Worrying isn't going to change what happens to my brain now. All worrying will do is stress me and that can make your head worse."

You're scared of CTE and concussions, are you not?