Way my club trains self defence

[Lifetime student]

One of the main criticisms of kenpo is that the self defence attacks aren't done realistically and the forms use different rules to the techniques. Now I agree with that in a sense that's why I teach things differently to some places. Personally I think one of my biggest strengths I can see the weaknesses I don't just rest on my Black belt thinking everything is perfect. That's nonsense there's always weakness. I'm sure there's that I'm doing now that aren't as effective as they could be. But I'm always trying to improve what I do and if I have to change things from how ed Parker did it then that's fine with me. In all respect ed Parkers dead I can't worry about what he'd be doing 25 years after he died. One of the keys to kenpo was to adapt and change things. Personally I think he'd be unhappy with the state of kenpo these days because everyone's to scared to change it from how he did it. That's not what he wanted from his style at all.


Now I'm not saying my school is amazing or anything. But the way I train students is we do the forms in the air yes. But we also do the same forms with self defence application with people attacking you and you use the movements to defend yourself.yes mostly the form dynamics change a little but it works. Also when we drill techniques we don't just stand there in one place and let the guy beat up on you with the moves. That's the way a lot of people in kenpo but I don't agree with that way because people won't just stand there and let you do it. They'll either try and move away, try and cover up, fight back or recoil in pain. So when they first learn yeah they do it stationary but after a while I get the training partners to move when the person does the technique. Either try and block some of the moves or just move away and they have to re close the distance or block more attacks. To me that makes it more realistic.

I went to my old schools black belt class a few weeks back and I got in trouble for moving away after shots they thought I was being weak and not taking it. But the move was I just front kicked in the stomach then kneed in the head so I moved back on the front kick and they moaned at me for moving away so he couldn't finish his technique. My response "you just front kicked me in the stomach I'm not just going to still be standing there waiting for you" so they said okay you do it then if I move away. So I did the front kick the guy jumped back quite far so I just simply closed the distance to get the knee in. Then I presented another option and did it again and when the kick pushed him far away I simply moved away. They asked what I was doing. I said my kick pushed you across the room now I've got space to escape the fight. Why run after you to carry on fighting?

That's just my way of thinking. Some guys may not agree with my methods but I feel it's effective and I'll stick with my way until I'm shown otherwise.

When we spar they don't just put on gloves and brawl. I get them into 2 groups one groups are just regular attackers. The second is technical group. I give each guy one or 2 techniques that I want them to use when they spar. I tell them I don't care if it works in the exact written manner just to try and use the base of that technique. That way we can see if they can apply it under pressure. I know on the downside to that is everyone knows the techniques so they can work out what's coming and can defend it but it is what it is nothing's perfect. That's why I try and encourage them to come to the mixed style class that way they can try this on non kenpo people to try and work it.

Again I'm not trying to sell a membership to anyone but just wanted to share my way.

 

[JR 137]

A common thing I see is people don’t increase the resistance in prearranged drills. The holding out the punch and allowing the defender to complete his attack method has its place. It’s place is early on when the defender learning the techniques and hasn’t had them fully memorized and isn’t fully proficient with it yet. Once the defender knows what he’s doing, the resistance has to come in otherwise it’s just a choreographed dance. The attacks need to get faster, it has to be harder to take the attacker down, etc.

We were working on stuff like that the other day. I noticed my “attacker” was punching where the block would’ve taken his punch rather than trying to actually hit me. After it happened a few times, I acted like I got confused and used the wrong block. He didn’t get it. After a few more with me doing them right, I moved back like I was supposed to, only without blocking and watched his punch go way off target. He looked at me confused, then figured it out. At least I think he did because he started punching on line rather than over to the side the block would’ve taken it. Hopefully I won’t have to do that again.

As I’ve advanced through the ranks (currently 2nd kyu), the punches coming at me have gotten much faster, and the resistance is much more. People don’t just stand there and let me sweep them; I’ve actually got to do it. They’ll just stare at me if there’s nothing behind it. They’ll hit me or stop just short of it if my block’s off. If my counter takes too long, they’ll counter me or readjust. That’s after they know I can do them right without any resistance, of course. I see the upper ranks do the same ones, so it’s obvious what it leads to - more resistance. Which is the way it should be.

I don’t know if your resistance is truly correct or not, as it’s words on paper rather than video. But I have no reason to doubt it’s appropriate and correct. I see too many other places not providing realistic resistance after the student has learned them. That’s just nonsense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Many arts have this issue (including some that eschew the term “art”). As JR points out, there’s a place for no resistance, and more use for very low resistance. But those shouldn’t be the long-term approach. Any resistance - especially variable resistance - will improve development.

 

[hoshin1600]

the key to everything is testing it. but what is important is not, that it was tested but rather , what was the test.
how you test something will determine the results. most failure is not because it was never tested out but because the wrong parameters were set up for the test. there are usually a lot of presuppositions and assumptions made prior to testing that are incorrect on the persons part due to individual bias that can skew the data results.
in this thread we are saying Parker did it one way and now we see a better way. well everyone thinks they have a better way. when we change things we need to make sure we are not making things worse in unintentional ways. Parker thought he had it right, as did so many other people.

 

[now disabled]

Many arts have this issue (including some that eschew the term “art”). As JR points out, there’s a place for no resistance, and more use for very low resistance. But those shouldn’t be the long-term approach. Any resistance - especially variable resistance - will improve development.

How you phrased that was very good and well put. There has to be a build up and progressive approach to training.

 

[now disabled]

the key to everything is testing it. but what is important is not, that it was tested but rather , what was the test.
how you test something will determine the results. most failure is not because it was never tested out but because the wrong parameters were set up for the test. there are usually a lot of presuppositions and assumptions made prior to testing that are incorrect on the persons part due to individual bias that can skew the data results.
in this thread we are saying Parker did it one way and now we see a better way. well everyone thinks they have a better way. when we change things we need to make sure we are not making things worse in unintentional ways. Parker thought he had it right, as did so many other people.

That is a very very valid argument to make. as changing things not always works out and can then lead to confusion.

An example of said (and I think you will know the tech) is Irimi nage (entering throw) when that was fist taught in the Aikido syllabus it was different to how it taught now. Imo the way it is taught now has more elements to it and is more complicated and imo it should have been added to the syllabus not as seems to be it now is the "way"

 

[jobo]

Many arts have this issue (including some that eschew the term “art”). As JR points out, there’s a place for no resistance, and more use for very low resistance. But those shouldn’t be the long-term approach. Any resistance - especially variable resistance - will improve development.

Ive thought aboat this from the ppint of view of my own class, which varies from extremly gentle to very alive dependent on who there and who your drilling with, the largest % of students object if you throw full speed punches off target, any meaning full attack which hurts, even if the hurt comes from a succesful block, causes them to become distressed and not come back. hit a focus pad hard and they go home with a sore wrist, Which has lead to the instructer having a word about terrorising his charges.

This isnt the fault of the class or the style, its just that most of the people who have decided to learn karate as an adult are physically abd mentally weak. Which is probebly why they want to lear karrate,
This will ultimately lead to them progressing througj a good fdw belts whilst never picking up the conditioning and reactions to ever make use of it.

There was a Big Guy who was up for LIVE drilling with real attacks till hE missed a block ( i punched with a left, right when we weree drilking right left )and i knocked him over, now he doesnt want to play any more. Which only leaves big Floyd and he doesnts come every week, t

Fliping milennials, they have no back bone

 

[now disabled]

Ive thought aboat this from the ppint of view of my own class, which varies from extremly gentle to very alive dependent on who there and who your drilling with, the largest % of students object if you throw full speed punches off target, any meaning full attack which hurts, even if the hurt comes from a succesful block, causes them to become distressed and not come back. hit a focus pad hard and they go home with a sore wrist, Which has lead to the instructer having a word about terrorising his charges.

This isnt the fault of the class or the style, its just that most of the people who have decided to learn karate as an adult are physically abd mentally weak. Which is probebly why they want to lear karrate,
This will ultimately lead to them progressing througj a good fdw belts whilst never picking up the conditioning and reactions to ever make use of it.

There was a Big Guy who was up for LIVE drilling with real attacks till hE missed a block ( i punched with a left, right when we weree drilking right left )and i knocked him over, now he doesnt want to play any more. Which only leaves big Floyd and he doesnts come every week, t

Fliping milennials, they have no back bone

Surely that is why a progressive approach is the way to go.

Not everyone wants to learn full contact and speed until they feel they are ready for that and that may never be ....
Also do bear in mind that folks may not want to go home from a training session or class feeling like they have been beat up as most will have to work the next day and make their living ............I do get your point on conditioning but that surely has to be a personal choice not mandatory

 

[jobo]

Surely that is why a progressive approach is the way to go.

Not everyone wants to learn full contact and speed until they feel they are ready for that and that may never be ....
Also do bear in mind that folks may not want to go home from a training session or class feeling like they have been beat up as most will have to work the next day and make their living ............I do get your point on conditioning but that surely has to be a personal choice not mandatory

Well yes, and dont i dont beat people who arbt up for a contest up, There not new starters they are people who are 3, 4 , and in one case,,7 belts in....i throw fast punches off target and they complain, i punch a focus pad hard and they complain, i grab them by the neck in a technique that requires neck grabbing and they complain.

I kick them very SOFTLYin slow motion and they complaim my super soFt trainers have scratched them thriugh a t-shirt, my point is that progressing through the amount of resistance is iMpossible if they have the sensativerty and pain threshold of a new born.and arnt prepared to suffer any disconfort at all.

 

[now disabled]

Well yes, and dont i dont beat people who arbt up for a contest up, i throw fast punches off target and they complain, i punch a focus pad hard and they complain, i grab them by the neck in a technique that requires neck grabbing and they complain.

I kick them very SOFTLYin slow motion and they complaim my super soFt trainers have scratched them thriugh a t-shirt, my point is that progressing through the amount of resistance is iMpossible if they have the sensativerty and pain threshold of a new born.and arnt prepared to suffer any disconfort at all.

Unfortunately that is how life works ... not all can handle and that is just something that has to be accepted. They may feel that the way they train is good for them and if it is and they are happy then let them be. As you think they are really getting nothing out of it just ignore it and as all you will do imo is get yourself pissed off and that will not help anything at all

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ive thought aboat this from the ppint of view of my own class, which varies from extremly gentle to very alive dependent on who there and who your drilling with, the largest % of students object if you throw full speed punches off target, any meaning full attack which hurts, even if the hurt comes from a succesful block, causes them to become distressed and not come back. hit a focus pad hard and they go home with a sore wrist, Which has lead to the instructer having a word about terrorising his charges.

This isnt the fault of the class or the style, its just that most of the people who have decided to learn karate as an adult are physically abd mentally weak. Which is probebly why they want to lear karrate,
This will ultimately lead to them progressing througj a good fdw belts whilst never picking up the conditioning and reactions to ever make use of it.

There was a Big Guy who was up for LIVE drilling with real attacks till hE missed a block ( i punched with a left, right when we weree drilking right left )and i knocked him over, now he doesnt want to play any more. Which only leaves big Floyd and he doesnts come every week, t

Fliping milennials, they have no back bone

This is one aspect that's often missed in looking at the difference in training methods. Some methods have an inherent selection process. People don't tend to stay in NGA classes at most schools if they can't take some pain and beating, because they're going to get blocked hard sometimes (hard enough to bruise), they're going to take some hard falls (which get softer as you learn to fall better, which you mostly learn by falling a lot), and will get joints locked just to the point of pain and very occasionally just beyond that point. I think training for boxing and MMA probably goes significantly further in that selection process, so people who survive (don't self-select out) are tougher to begin with.

 

[skribs]

A common thing I see is people don’t increase the resistance in prearranged drills. The holding out the punch and allowing the defender to complete his attack method has its place. It’s place is early on when the defender learning the techniques and hasn’t had them fully memorized and isn’t fully proficient with it yet. Once the defender knows what he’s doing, the resistance has to come in otherwise it’s just a choreographed dance. The attacks need to get faster, it has to be harder to take the attacker down, etc.

I noticed a lot of this when I was watching Marvel's Iron Fist. The hanging of a punch so someone could do something with it.

So at what point do you take the prearranged drill and either start experimenting with different things you can do, or else have the attacker vary the attack and expect the defender to deal with that new complication? (i.e. instead of a single reverse punch, defend against a combo).

 

[jobo]

Unfortunately that is how life works ... not all can handle and that is just something that has to be accepted. They may feel that the way they train is good for them and if it is and they are happy then let them be. As you think they are really getting nothing out of it just ignore it and as all you will do imo is get yourself pissed off and that will not help anything at all

but thats the subject of the thread, people learnibg ma, with iut any prospect of ever being even barely adequate at ma, becase of a lack of resistance training.

People blame schools for not doing alive drills/ sparing, when at least in my case, its the students that wont even contemplate it, the instructers quite happy for it to happen.

 

[now disabled]

I noticed a lot of this when I was watching Marvel's Iron Fist. The hanging of a punch so someone could do something with it.

So at what point do you take the prearranged drill and either start experimenting with different things you can do, or else have the attacker vary the attack and expect the defender to deal with that new complication? (i.e. instead of a single reverse punch, defend against a combo).

The hanging of a punch lol that early on in any training

You can very easily progress from there by increasing velocity and in my art that is actually very important if you really want to start learning and not have your uke help you out

 

[now disabled]

but thats the subject of the thread, people learnibg ma, with iut any prospect of ever being even barely adequate at ma, becase of a lack of resistance training.

People blame schools for not doing alive drills/ sparing, when at least in my case, its the students that wont even contemplate it, the instructers quite happy for it to happen.

Oh I get you totally

The instructors lol.....they need to pay bills that could be why

 

[Martial D]

One of the main criticisms of kenpo is that the self defence attacks aren't done realistically and the forms use different rules to the techniques. Now I agree with that in a sense that's why I teach things differently to some places. Personally I think one of my biggest strengths I can see the weaknesses I don't just rest on my Black belt thinking everything is perfect. That's nonsense there's always weakness. I'm sure there's that I'm doing now that aren't as effective as they could be. But I'm always trying to improve what I do and if I have to change things from how ed Parker did it then that's fine with me. In all respect ed Parkers dead I can't worry about what he'd be doing 25 years after he died. One of the keys to kenpo was to adapt and change things. Personally I think he'd be unhappy with the state of kenpo these days because everyone's to scared to change it from how he did it. That's not what he wanted from his style at all.


Now I'm not saying my school is amazing or anything. But the way I train students is we do the forms in the air yes. But we also do the same forms with self defence application with people attacking you and you use the movements to defend yourself.yes mostly the form dynamics change a little but it works. Also when we drill techniques we don't just stand there in one place and let the guy beat up on you with the moves. That's the way a lot of people in kenpo but I don't agree with that way because people won't just stand there and let you do it. They'll either try and move away, try and cover up, fight back or recoil in pain. So when they first learn yeah they do it stationary but after a while I get the training partners to move when the person does the technique. Either try and block some of the moves or just move away and they have to re close the distance or block more attacks. To me that makes it more realistic.

I went to my old schools black belt class a few weeks back and I got in trouble for moving away after shots they thought I was being weak and not taking it. But the move was I just front kicked in the stomach then kneed in the head so I moved back on the front kick and they moaned at me for moving away so he couldn't finish his technique. My response "you just front kicked me in the stomach I'm not just going to still be standing there waiting for you" so they said okay you do it then if I move away. So I did the front kick the guy jumped back quite far so I just simply closed the distance to get the knee in. Then I presented another option and did it again and when the kick pushed him far away I simply moved away. They asked what I was doing. I said my kick pushed you across the room now I've got space to escape the fight. Why run after you to carry on fighting?

That's just my way of thinking. Some guys may not agree with my methods but I feel it's effective and I'll stick with my way until I'm shown otherwise.

When we spar they don't just put on gloves and brawl. I get them into 2 groups one groups are just regular attackers. The second is technical group. I give each guy one or 2 techniques that I want them to use when they spar. I tell them I don't care if it works in the exact written manner just to try and use the base of that technique. That way we can see if they can apply it under pressure. I know on the downside to that is everyone knows the techniques so they can work out what's coming and can defend it but it is what it is nothing's perfect. That's why I try and encourage them to come to the mixed style class that way they can try this on non kenpo people to try and work it.

Again I'm not trying to sell a membership to anyone but just wanted to share my way.

It seems strange to me that any school teaching striking...in any style...would discourage movement and distance control.

 

[skribs]

The hanging of a punch lol that early on in any training

You can very easily progress from there by increasing velocity and in my art that is actually very important if you really want to start learning and not have your uke help you out

Yes, but Iron Fist is a show about a superhero who is the best fighter in the world, who is fighting an organization of ninjas. And you shouldn't see the hanging punches in that context.

Increasing the velocity is good, but what about the other things I mentioned, such as variation on the part of the attacker or defender?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I noticed a lot of this when I was watching Marvel's Iron Fist. The hanging of a punch so someone could do something with it.

So at what point do you take the prearranged drill and either start experimenting with different things you can do, or else have the attacker vary the attack and expect the defender to deal with that new complication? (i.e. instead of a single reverse punch, defend against a combo).

Speaking from my approach, we start to alter the attacks pretty quickly. It takes a while for students to make the transition to taking their arm back, and I let that happen naturally (unless they take too long to learn it), so there's a gradual change for their training partners. Eventually, the idea is they can be given just whatever attack, and find a reasonable response to it. Pair that with standing (striking) sparring and randori (standing grappling sparring and some groundwork), and they learn to deal with both variation in attack, and resistance to their response.

 

[now disabled]

Yes, but Iron Fist is a show about a superhero who is the best fighter in the world, who is fighting an organization of ninjas. And you shouldn't see the hanging punches in that context.

Increasing the velocity is good, but what about the other things I mentioned, such as variation on the part of the attacker or defender?

Lol ok superhero I will leave totally

The variation again is not hard to do and that comes as people progress on the path

I will only say that in Aikido to fully engage in the aiki side you have to have the velocity or many tech you will have to generate the power yourself ...hope that makes sense

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but thats the subject of the thread, people learnibg ma, with iut any prospect of ever being even barely adequate at ma, becase of a lack of resistance training.

People blame schools for not doing alive drills/ sparing, when at least in my case, its the students that wont even contemplate it, the instructers quite happy for it to happen.

I don't think we can let the instructors entirely off the hook, Jobo. They create expectations by how they introduce people to the training. I try to make sure there's some manageable discomfort early on in training to set that expectation.