Skip Dan Test

[dvcochran]

This is where most of the problem lies. How will the governmental body know what I ought to be teaching? Or the MMA coach down the road? Or the guy who trains Olympic hopefuls for TKD?


The business areas of it are irrelevant to someone's teaching ability, especially where that's not the objective of the school (not trying to run it for profit).


Again, the concept is tempting, but as soon as any details are examined, it gets hard for me to imagine it being successful. Within a single organization, it kind of works, but even there it tends to stifle evolution of technique. How much more restrictive will it become when it has a larger bureaucracy behind it?

I could see this, instead, as a way to set up a program to help build stronger schools. I toyed at one time with the idea of setting up instructor workshop series, working with some good instructors to build curriculum to help all of us improve. Kind of like a SCORE (Service Corps Of Retired Executives) concept for MA. I could even imagine an Associate's degree (for those outside the US, that's a 2-year degree typically earned from a community college) that includes basic small business training, learning theory (adult and juvenile), safety, etc.

I am vaguely familiar with SCORE. The notion that is would be difficult to find qualified people at the top levels is the same for both entities. It would have to be people passionate about the health and strength of MA's and have ample experience.
But the purpose within the idea is the same.

I hate using this analogy but it is all I can think of. It is a "good enough" approach. A group to ensure minimum standards are met. The rest is up to the instructor/school.

 

[dvcochran]

How does one prove the competency, and who is the judge of that?

If you were in charge, how would you improve the competency understand the dynamics involved? There would be little to no difference.

 

[Flying Crane]

If you were in charge, how would you improve the competency understand the dynamics involved? There would be little to no difference.

I’m sure there would be a lot of difference. Things that I focus on, that I feel are essential to the training, other people often don’t. Where does a consensus come from?

For starters, do you envision a regulator/panel of experts from each system, to establish the standards only for that system? Or do you envision a single panel of people representing several systems, to collectively set a single standard that everyone must follow, regardless of their system? Or would that same group set standards appropriate for each different system, and if so, how would they determine that if they have no experience with each system?

Whoever the panel is, do they determine what is contained in the curriculum for each system? If so, how do they determine that? Do they standardize the forms, and everyone practicing that system needs to do their forms the same? Does it become illegal to alter a form or create a new one without approval of the regulators?

What about systems that have a very small following and are obscure, so they get overlooked by the regulators? As an unregulated entity in a regulated industry, does it become illegal to practice or teach that method? If someone lawfully defends himself using techniques or methods from one of these unregulated systems, can he be prosecuted for using an unregulated/illegal system?

Does every martial art teacher need a teaching credential in physical education? Or a personal trainer credential, or a degree in exercise physiology?

What do you envision here? Because as a mandatory government regulatory action I cannot imagine this happening.

 

[Buka]

In the history of bad ideas, government run Martial Arts is an absolute doozy.

 

[dvcochran]

I’m sure there would be a lot of difference. Things that I focus on, that I feel are essential to the training, other people often don’t. Where does a consensus come from?

Clearly you have never served in your local government. I assure you there are lots of people who have the exact viewpoint and you and just as many who do not. No different from every other walk of like.
Do not kid yourself that you have some higher perspective.

For starters, do you envision a regulator/panel of experts from each system, to establish the standards only for that system? Or do you envision a single panel of people representing several systems, to collectively set a single standard that everyone must follow, regardless of their system? Or would that same group set standards appropriate for each different system, and if so, how would they determine that if they have no experience with each system?

Whoever the panel is, do they determine what is contained in the curriculum for each system? If so, how do they determine that? Do they standardize the forms, and everyone practicing that system needs to do their forms the same? Does it become illegal to alter a form or create a new one without approval of the regulators?

What about systems that have a very small following and are obscure, so they get overlooked by the regulators? As an unregulated entity in a regulated industry, does it become illegal to practice or teach that method? If someone lawfully defends himself using techniques or methods from one of these unregulated systems, can he be prosecuted for using an unregulated/illegal system?

What do you envision here? Because as a mandatory government regulatory action I cannot imagine this happening.

An old industry applies here: look at it from 10,000 feet. Seldom does regulation dictate method or process to the level you describe. An exception would be in an industry like chemical or petroleum where a dangerous process could literally kill thousands. Government could not nor should not.

Of course there would Not be a panel for each system, that is non-sensical. You are getting caught up in Your style or how You teach. That would never be the purpose. Just like there are terrible school teachers and great school teachers, they are both bound by certain standards. School teachers make up their own curriculum, within very loose boundaries of there given subject. A Kung Fu instructor and a Shotokan instructor would be no different. Each school would to the forms and curriculum they design. You want to make your own form, go for it. If you promote your form as the end all/be all tool for self defense then you have stepped out of bounds and could be reprimanded or fined. At the very least warned and posted.
School size or obscurity has nothing to do with it. If you chose to regulate yourself and got yourself sued or someone hurt it would certainly play against you that you did not follow some established rules.
Someone defending themselves would be just as likely to be prosecuted regardless of where they worked out. Just like it is now. There are more techniques that crossover to multiple styles that those that do not. IF your style/school promoted a specific technique that was totally exclusive I could see where that may implicate more than just the person who used it illegally. Breaking someone's arm making them bleed in an unsanctioned physical encounter is always going to break some law. That has nothing to do with whether they have had training or not. You have stepped over into moral and ethic areas.

Does every martial art teacher need a teaching credential in physical education? Or a personal trainer credential, or a degree in exercise physiology?

Nope. They may need to be credentialed depending on their local government standard if they wish to categorize themselves as "self defense instruction" for example.​

 

[dvcochran]

In the history of bad ideas, government run Martial Arts is an absolute doozy.

View attachment 22450

Yea, that is a scary picture. But that is not at all what I am saying at all. If you do to the doctors office don't you expect certain levels of cleanliness, knowledge, professionalism, etc...? Why should MA,s be held to a lower standard than anything else?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yea, that is a scary picture. But that is not at all what I am saying at all. If you do to the doctors office don't you expect certain levels of cleanliness, knowledge, professionalism, etc...? Why should MA,s be held to a lower standard than anything else?

Why is it up to the government to set up that level? Why cant people make their own decisions and judgments, and choose to go/not to go to a dojo based on those judgments?

 

[dvcochran]

Why is it up to the government to set up that level? Why cant people make their own decisions and judgments, and choose to go/not to go to a dojo based on those judgments?

They should and will but what is wrong with easing the process of making an informed decision?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

They should and will but what is wrong with easing the process of making an informed decision?

Because it would

A: Be taking away our ability to decide what standards we as consumers want (If I want a place that allows for soft training, where I can be a hobbyist who just focuses on myself, but the gov't requires a certain amount of proof that the dojo is doing contact sparring, for instance, I now lost my place of training. If I want a place like the old kenpo or kyokushin places with full-contact bare knuckle sparring, but the gov't feels like there are 'safety concerns' and outlaws that type of practice with their regs, I lost my place of training).

B: Be taking away from an instructors ability to open up a school/dojo. You would no longer be able to start your school in your backyard/garage/park, and transition when you have enough people. You would have to be putting in time and money from the getgo, which would likely make some people who would open up a school/training group no longer able to do so, and that would be a result based on their finances/ability to put the business on hold, while getting it up to regulations (and I can pretty much guarantee they would not approve "my backyard" as a place for a training group) rather than their ability as instructors.

 

[Flying Crane]

Clearly you have never served in your local government. I assure you there are lots of people who have the exact viewpoint and you and just as many who do not. No different from every other walk of like.
Do not kid yourself that you have some higher perspective.



An old industry applies here: look at it from 10,000 feet. Seldom does regulation dictate method or process to the level you describe. An exception would be in an industry like chemical or petroleum where a dangerous process could literally kill thousands. Government could not nor should not.

Of course there would Not be a panel for each system, that is non-sensical. You are getting caught up in Your style or how You teach. That would never be the purpose. Just like there are terrible school teachers and great school teachers, they are both bound by certain standards. School teachers make up their own curriculum, within very loose boundaries of there given subject. A Kung Fu instructor and a Shotokan instructor would be no different. Each school would to the forms and curriculum they design. You want to make your own form, go for it. If you promote your form as the end all/be all tool for self defense then you have stepped out of bounds and could be reprimanded or fined. At the very least warned and posted.
School size or obscurity has nothing to do with it. If you chose to regulate yourself and got yourself sued or someone hurt it would certainly play against you that you did not follow some established rules.
Someone defending themselves would be just as likely to be prosecuted regardless of where they worked out. Just like it is now. There are more techniques that crossover to multiple styles that those that do not. IF your style/school promoted a specific technique that was totally exclusive I could see where that may implicate more than just the person who used it illegally. Breaking someone's arm making them bleed in an unsanctioned physical encounter is always going to break some law. That has nothing to do with whether they have had training or not. You have stepped over into moral and ethic areas.



Nope. They may need to be credentialed depending on their local government standard if they wish to categorize themselves as "self defense instruction" for example.​

So again, for about the third time, i am asking you, explain how you envision this to work. So far you have give very vague non-answers.

or is this all just a put-on?

 

[Flying Crane]

Yea, that is a scary picture. But that is not at all what I am saying at all. If you do to the doctors office don't you expect certain levels of cleanliness, knowledge, professionalism, etc...? Why should MA,s be held to a lower standard than anything else?

Why do you see the doctor’s office comparison as appropriate? I don’t.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I’m sure there would be a lot of difference. Things that I focus on, that I feel are essential to the training, other people often don’t. Where does a consensus come from?

For starters, do you envision a regulator/panel of experts from each system, to establish the standards only for that system? Or do you envision a single panel of people representing several systems, to collectively set a single standard that everyone must follow, regardless of their system? Or would that same group set standards appropriate for each different system, and if so, how would they determine that if they have no experience with each system?

Whoever the panel is, do they determine what is contained in the curriculum for each system? If so, how do they determine that? Do they standardize the forms, and everyone practicing that system needs to do their forms the same? Does it become illegal to alter a form or create a new one without approval of the regulators?

What about systems that have a very small following and are obscure, so they get overlooked by the regulators? As an unregulated entity in a regulated industry, does it become illegal to practice or teach that method? If someone lawfully defends himself using techniques or methods from one of these unregulated systems, can he be prosecuted for using an unregulated/illegal system?

Does every martial art teacher need a teaching credential in physical education? Or a personal trainer credential, or a degree in exercise physiology?

What do you envision here? Because as a mandatory government regulatory action I cannot imagine this happening.

I wonder how much of this is similar to how the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai ("Greater Japanese Martial Virtue Society" or something like that) worked. They designated groups of arts (Karate, Judo, Aikido, etc.) and had some oversight, though I'm really not sure how much. I think instructors were registered with them, to keep some level of accreditation. Of course, that worked to some extent because the arts were all within the Japanese culture - they didn't have to figure out how to include CMA or Western arts.

 

[pdg]

You can't really compare MA to trade qualifications imo.

For example an electrician, there is known and proven theory and practice - everyone who knows, knows what works, what's safe and what is bunkum. There's also set standards as to how much of the theoretical and practical knowledge is required to do each type of job.

Same with medicine to a point - yes it's constantly evolving but there are known standards in each specialty or general practice that are upheld by licensing.

With MA though, what exactly is going to be regulated?

There can be set standards for cleanliness, but that can be assessed by a visit - and even then over here very very few schools have their own dedicated facilities so are dependent on whoever owns that space to keep the floors clean.

Over here also, there are already regs in place for stuff like working with kids, and while there are always going to be cases that slip through the net as it were, the same happens with certified doctors - unless you're going to say that no doctor in X country has ever been guilty of malpractice...

And that's before you get into deciding which styles or techniques are going to be certified.

And the thing about maintaining actual proficiency - just how does anyone go about providing evidence that their brand of self defence is reliable?

In short a comparison to trade skills is a bad one.

A better comparison is to something like a guitar teacher. They can be certified by their musical organisation, or anyone can advertise and teach (while complying with stuff like safeguarding regs).

What happens if the teacher isn't much good?

Nothing of note. It's a hobby. If it's fun and you get what you want, it's served it's purpose.


I honestly think comparison of an MA teacher to something like a doctor is a massive inflation of the modern importance of MA.

 

[dvcochran]

A doctor and their office environment is/should be a professional setting. How do you describe your MA environment? How do you want others to see it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A doctor and their office environment is/should be a professional setting. How do you describe your MA environment? How do you want others to see it?

So is a consulting company's office. Or a print shop.

 

[pdg]

You can be and look professional without needing a certificate.

And, you can have a certificate and look professional and be nothing like it...


I can understand people running a big school liking this sort of idea - there's invariably going to be "guild of master instructor" membership costs which smaller schools just can't absorb and remain anything like competitive.

There's only a limited number of people with any interest in doing MA at all and they're currently shared amongst the many smaller schools - anything like this, especially if it's a legal requirement, is going to destroy the smaller places and only encourage chains. Good for bigger schools, bad for student choice.

Maybe in the states where people apparently like getting lost amongst 2,000 other students and like the idea of a big flashy corporation it could work, especially for those corporations - but the rest of the world probably isn't interested.

 

[dvcochran]

You can't really compare MA to trade qualifications imo.

For example an electrician, there is known and proven theory and practice - everyone who knows, knows what works, what's safe and what is bunkum. There's also set standards as to how much of the theoretical and practical knowledge is required to do each type of job.

Same with medicine to a point - yes it's constantly evolving but there are known standards in each specialty or general practice that are upheld by licensing.

With MA though, what exactly is going to be regulated?

There can be set standards for cleanliness, but that can be assessed by a visit - and even then over here very very few schools have their own dedicated facilities so are dependent on whoever owns that space to keep the floors clean.

Over here also, there are already regs in place for stuff like working with kids, and while there are always going to be cases that slip through the net as it were, the same happens with certified doctors - unless you're going to say that no doctor in X country has ever been guilty of malpractice...

And that's before you get into deciding which styles or techniques are going to be certified.

And the thing about maintaining actual proficiency - just how does anyone go about providing evidence that their brand of self defence is reliable?

In short a comparison to trade skills is a bad one.

A better comparison is to something like a guitar teacher. They can be certified by their musical organisation, or anyone can advertise and teach (while complying with stuff like safeguarding regs).

What happens if the teacher isn't much good?

Nothing of note. It's a hobby. If it's fun and you get what you want, it's served it's purpose.


I honestly think comparison of an MA teacher to something like a doctor is a massive inflation of the modern importance of MA.

Look at the trends. At least in the U.S. people are moving away from gross/generic gyms to more specific exercise venues. The more specific the field the greater need for assurances of proficiency. Teaching is considered a trade so a guitar teacher would fall into the group of professionals being discussed. A Professional of, whatever. Ninety-nine of MA's are hobbyists.
Maybe there are enough steps in place to protect a person ignorant of MA's who are looking for a place to workout but I am not aware of any. Some businesses that are poorly operated take care of their own demise.
One of the highest ranking in our organization opened a school around 2000. He is a lifetime alcoholic who had cleaned up and had even started a prison ministry. The school went ok for a few years then started going into the red. He began making compromises and many of the tell-tale actions of a bad instructor. Things got really bad and I personally know people who lost thousands. The resounding effects were dramatic. From a MA perspective, the greatest effect is that there is only one school in a county that used to had five or six different styles. When the topic of MA comes up it most often circles around to "remember that really bad school …"?)
The point I am trying to make is it lessened the whole MA community in this area greatly. Economics and public opinion were ruined and has yet to recover.

 

[dvcochran]

So again, for about the third time, i am asking you, explain how you envision this to work. So far you have give very vague non-answers.

or is this all just a put-on?

Well, I just did. You do not want to think and read into the answers.

No one person can or should have THE answer. It is much too complex. Just like this forum, it will require a group of like minded individuals to banter the specifics.

 

[dvcochran]

Because it would

A: Be taking away our ability to decide what standards we as consumers want (If I want a place that allows for soft training, where I can be a hobbyist who just focuses on myself, but the gov't requires a certain amount of proof that the dojo is doing contact sparring, for instance, I now lost my place of training. If I want a place like the old kenpo or kyokushin places with full-contact bare knuckle sparring, but the gov't feels like there are 'safety concerns' and outlaws that type of practice with their regs, I lost my place of training).

B: Be taking away from an instructors ability to open up a school/dojo. You would no longer be able to start your school in your backyard/garage/park, and transition when you have enough people. You would have to be putting in time and money from the getgo, which would likely make some people who would open up a school/training group no longer able to do so, and that would be a result based on their finances/ability to put the business on hold, while getting it up to regulations (and I can pretty much guarantee they would not approve "my backyard" as a place for a training group) rather than their ability as instructors.

Again, it would have nothing to do with style specifics.

A: From your point of view, it would increase free enterprise by creating opportunity for a soft style and a hard style school or classes.

B: It would never do that. The best example I can come up with off the cuff is layers based on participant levels.
If you want to open up a school in your back yard, go for it. Just don't promote it as something else. You want to hang out with your friends and work out in you pajamas in your front yard, go for it.
Free enterprise is one of the best things about most parts of world economics.

****This is food for thought only!!!! I am very, conservative. I am NOT for big government or intervention. I am for sound business practices and staunchly promote free enterprise. No one person can answer this question. The intent has always been to improve the MA community as a whole. Change (a strong word in this scenario)always takes time to understand and process.
I ask that each question/challenge be turned on itself and answered in some form by the one asking it. Active participation is the only way to figure out if this would ever have merit. I love the "saying shoot holes in it to see if it still floats". It definitely applies here. If the agenda is to only apply the negatives then nothing productive will ever happen. See the whole picture. If you have a limited perspective due to lesser experience, etc.... acknowledge that. Don't just try to be the loudest voice in the room. Misguided passion and emotion resolve little.
Input needs come from everywhere.

 

[pdg]

How on earth did people lose thousands to an MA school?

Prepayment schemes or contracted multi month/year programmes through a third party collection agency?

Yeah, almost nowhere here does those...

If the school I go to folds or drops quality and I leave, the most I lose financially is maybe a months fee. But seeing as I've been there long enough to not remember whether I pay in advance or arrears that's a coin toss as to whether I lose or they do.


It appears the US model and trends are totally different to here - for fitness gyms some people like the corporate style and benefits like being able to drop in to any of their premises, but even then it tends to be independent places that subscribe to those schemes.

Also, pay as you go models are gaining popularity over contract schemes for those as well - people in general here just don't want the traditional yearly gym contracts, so opt for rolling monthly deals that you can cancel at any time with no penalties.

And then there's the whole thing of us Brits just not trusting big corporations...