Skip Dan Test

[dvcochran]

It would be more problematic than that. Imagine if the same system of certification were to be applied to electricians, plumbers, and general contractors. That's not far from analogous to trying to include TKD, BJJ, and Aikido in the same system. At best, you'd need a separate system for each group of arts. And how do you account (in that system) for un-aligned ranks (10-yr shodan vs 3-yr shodan)? I don't really think it's workable. And if it were imposed, it would drive folks to stay within larger organizations, reducing the evolution that happens as groups split.

But they are not the same certification. Electricians, plumbers, orthopedics, gynecologists, etc..., all have different training and certification. There are one man companies up to mega corporations so size is not a leading factor. In some professions there are layers in broad brush strokes, bachelors in whatever for example, but I see no reason there could not be something similar for different styles. There are specialty fields in every skilled trade I can think of so why can't there be "specialist" or unique styles within a given system?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But they are not the same certification. Electricians, plumbers, orthopedics, gynecologists, etc..., all have different training and certification. There are one man companies up to mega corporations so size is not a leading factor. In some professions there are layers in broad brush strokes, bachelors in whatever for example, but I see no reason there could not be something similar for different styles. There are specialty fields in every skilled trade I can think of so why can't there be "specialist" or unique styles within a given system?

That was my point - it wouldn't be a single thing, but one for each group (I thought you were saying it would be a single source). I'm not sure how different that would be from what we have now. There would be an arbiter of who belongs in each list, and that's going to be back to who's in an association.

 

[Flying Crane]

Who gets to be the authority for each system, in establishing the credentials? Gonna be LOTS of argument over that, just for starters.

Martial arts are/were a folk art, passed down from generation to generation, among families and close-knit societies. Personally I would like to see it stay that way. I think big certifying agencies are not necessarily a good thing.

 

[dvcochran]

Who gets to be the authority for each system, in establishing the credentials? Gonna be LOTS of argument over that, just for starters.

Martial arts are/were a folk art, passed down from generation to generation, among families and close-knit societies. Personally I would like to see it stay that way. I think big certifying agencies are not necessarily a good thing.

Why would that go away? A vehicle to help people Not end up being sucker for a disreputable person/school is never a bad thing. It is no difference from the risk people take going to a soothsayer vs. going to a credentialed doctor. The choice would always be there.

 

[Flying Crane]

Why would that go away? A vehicle to help people Not end up being sucker for a disreputable person/school is never a bad thing. It is no difference from the risk people take going to a soothsayer vs. going to a credentialed doctor. The choice would always be there.

So it really just becomes another organization. Participation is optional and it has no real authority other than among those who choose to belong.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why would that go away? A vehicle to help people Not end up being sucker for a disreputable person/school is never a bad thing. It is no difference from the risk people take going to a soothsayer vs. going to a credentialed doctor. The choice would always be there.

I guess I don't see how that's any different from any MA association.

 

[dvcochran]

So it really just becomes another organization. Participation is optional and it has no real authority other than among those who choose to belong.

I don't see it that way at all. Diligence and effort go a long way. The instructors/schools who value being known/seen as credible will make every effort to be seen that way. Why is there something wrong with certifying that their product And their business is credible? The average person who has zero MA exposure would benefit from such tools. So would the MA community as a whole.
No, I don't feel participation should be optional but it would infringe on free enterprise to say that.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't see it that way at all. Diligence and effort go a long way. The instructors/schools who value being known/seen as credible will make every effort to be seen that way. Why is there something wrong with certifying that their product And their business is credible? The average person who has zero MA exposure would benefit from such tools. So would the MA community as a whole.
No, I don't feel participation should be optional but it would infringe on free enterprise to say that.

I’m trying to make sure I understand what you are saying. Is this a government credential or something you envision? Oversight on a governmental level?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't see it that way at all. Diligence and effort go a long way. The instructors/schools who value being known/seen as credible will make every effort to be seen that way. Why is there something wrong with certifying that their product And their business is credible? The average person who has zero MA exposure would benefit from such tools. So would the MA community as a whole.
No, I don't feel participation should be optional but it would infringe on free enterprise to say that.

There's nothing wrong with the concept. But how will it be done? On what basis will a given instructor/school be certified?

 

[dvcochran]

There's nothing wrong with the concept. But how will it be done? On what basis will a given instructor/school be certified?

You know how these things go. A number of people, supposed experts debate that question for years and finally enough common ground is found to develop a process. Then the competition begins to decide/vote on who is going to be in charge. Eventually some fruitful and reliable results are established.

 

[dvcochran]

I’m trying to make sure I understand what you are saying. Is this a government credential or something you envision? Oversight on a governmental level?

It would have to have some kind of regulatory commission so yes, it would likely be a government entity. At the very least industry regulators, (like OSHA, EPA, NFPA, etc...)

 

[Flying Crane]

It would have to have some kind of regulatory commission so yes, it would likely be a government entity. At the very least industry regulators, (like OSHA, EPA, NFPA, etc...)

Ok well, I disagree with government regulation in this particular arena, and given the sheer number of different martial arts, some of which are obscure and have very few practitioners, I cannot imagine how it could be successful. It would likely reduce them all down to some simplistic common denominator with everything the same. I think it could be the death of many systems.

Actually, likely it would all go underground and people would just keep doing what they do. It would just prevent people from opening schools and teaching openly. It might ensure that most of it goes back into the arena of a folk method. Likely the results would be the opposite of what is intended.

Hmmm... how exciting...

 

[Flying Crane]

You know how these things go. A number of people, supposed experts debate that question for years and finally enough common ground is found to develop a process. Then the competition begins to decide/vote on who is going to be in charge. Eventually some fruitful and reliable results are established.

Ask the wing Chun folks who they all would be willing to accept as the National Wing Chun Authority. See if you can get any consensus on that...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You know how these things go. A number of people, supposed experts debate that question for years and finally enough common ground is found to develop a process. Then the competition begins to decide/vote on who is going to be in charge. Eventually some fruitful and reliable results are established.

In my experience, what happens instead is that the exact process you describe occurs, and results in disagreement and competing standards. Which is pretty much what we have now. As I said, I like the concept, but I don't see how it ever ends up with a single authority, even within a given group of arts.

Let's start with a simpler question: what would be certified? That, even, would likely be an area of contention. Does it certify that the instructor has trained for the number of years they claim (with whom, at what regularity, etc.)? Does it certify that they're approved to teach (approved by whom, to teach what, to what level, etc.)? Does it certify that they are passing along something that accurately represents that art (as designated by whom)?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ask the wing Chun folks who they all would be willing to accept as the National Wing Chun Authority. See if you can get any consensus on that...

I know of a few WC folks who'd be willing to claim that position.

 

[Flying Crane]

I know of a few WC folks who'd be willing to claim that position.

Oh I’m sure they would be willing and eager to claim it. But how many would accept them in that role? I’m guessing nobody who lies outside their direct downstream lineage.

Take Tibetan White Crane. There are very few people in the US who even practice it. Good luck even tracking them down to determine who the real authority is. Good luck getting an 80 year-old Chinese immigrant to take a job as a government regulator. Does a system like this just get overlooked, and by default becomes illegal to teach because it is unregulated?

Take a look at all the variations within the American Kenpo groups. There is so much inconsistency between different groups and lineages, and some heavy egos in the mix, there is no way they would submit as a body, to some regulators.

 

[skribs]

I know of a few WC folks who'd be willing to claim that position.

I don't even train Wing Chun and I'll claim that position.

 

[dvcochran]

In my experience, what happens instead is that the exact process you describe occurs, and results in disagreement and competing standards. Which is pretty much what we have now. As I said, I like the concept, but I don't see how it ever ends up with a single authority, even within a given group of arts.

Let's start with a simpler question: what would be certified? That, even, would likely be an area of contention. Does it certify that the instructor has trained for the number of years they claim (with whom, at what regularity, etc.)? Does it certify that they're approved to teach (approved by whom, to teach what, to what level, etc.)? Does it certify that they are passing along something that accurately represents that art (as designated by whom)?

Requirements could include:
Proven competency in given skills (SD, competition sparring/forms/breaking, stretching, philosophy, more).
Health and safety
Building, workout area standards
Business model/promotion/networking

These should be refined over time.

The first bullet would have the heaviest weight. Just like with certification and qualification in other professions a person history, experience, and promotion within their style(s) would accelerate the process. If a person wanted to stay independent and was not worried about student/class size it would not be very important to them. The has and always will be room for both. They are not mutually exclusive. I have never felt there is enough networking within the MA community outside a given style/organization.

 

[Flying Crane]

Requirements could include:
Proven competency in given skills (SD, competition sparring/forms/breaking, stretching, philosophy, more).
Health and safety
Building, workout area standards
Business model/promotion/networking

These should be refined over time.

The first bullet would have the heaviest weight. Just like with certification and qualification in other professions a person history, experience, and promotion within their style(s) would accelerate the process. If a person wanted to stay independent and was not worried about student/class size it would not be very important to them. The has and always will be room for both. They are not mutually exclusive. I have never felt there is enough networking within the MA community outside a given style/organization.

How does one prove the competency, and who is the judge of that?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Requirements could include:
Proven competency in given skills (SD, competition sparring/forms/breaking, stretching, philosophy, more).

This is where most of the problem lies. How will the governmental body know what I ought to be teaching? Or the MMA coach down the road? Or the guy who trains Olympic hopefuls for TKD?

Health and safety
Building, workout area standards
Business model/promotion/networking

The business areas of it are irrelevant to someone's teaching ability, especially where that's not the objective of the school (not trying to run it for profit).

These should be refined over time.

The first bullet would have the heaviest weight. Just like with certification and qualification in other professions a person history, experience, and promotion within their style(s) would accelerate the process. If a person wanted to stay independent and was not worried about student/class size it would not be very important to them. The has and always will be room for both. They are not mutually exclusive. I have never felt there is enough networking within the MA community outside a given style/organization.

Again, the concept is tempting, but as soon as any details are examined, it gets hard for me to imagine it being successful. Within a single organization, it kind of works, but even there it tends to stifle evolution of technique. How much more restrictive will it become when it has a larger bureaucracy behind it?

I could see this, instead, as a way to set up a program to help build stronger schools. I toyed at one time with the idea of setting up instructor workshop series, working with some good instructors to build curriculum to help all of us improve. Kind of like a SCORE (Service Corps Of Retired Executives) concept for MA. I could even imagine an Associate's degree (for those outside the US, that's a 2-year degree typically earned from a community college) that includes basic small business training, learning theory (adult and juvenile), safety, etc.