Skip dan testing?

[Gerry Seymour]

The belt system has to mean something for the belt system to work.

As long as they meet the requirements, the meaning stays the same.

The only Dan skipping I remember in NGA was within the “honorary” ranks (no testing beyond nidan). My first instructor was promoted from nidan to yondan (making him second only to the head of the style), at the request of several sandans.

 

[Sporty2018]

Wow. Interesting discussion.

I'd say Im surprised at some comments, but... Not really.
Thks truejim for adding some perspective.

I'll never understand some views on jump dan. As stated above by someone, there are certain circumstances. Mine is one of them. Thus my question that seemed to trigger this thread.

Skip dan testing should still look at the larger context of the candidate background, as well. As the skill at time of test. The administrator could still determine that the candidate see deserves a lower rank, and so be it.

I would be faaaar more concerned with the test mill type schools where no one fails. More of a schedule than a readiness.

 

[andyjeffries]

Wow so you really can skip Dan grades?....this is why traditional martial arts standards are going downhill. Black belt shouldn't want to skip a Dan they shouldn't care about rank at that point only their training and improving

I don't think traditional martial arts standards are going downhill, but maybe I hang out in different circles. We have much better access to seminars from high ranking grandmasters and masters now than we ever used to, qualification courses from the Kukkiwon. I see standards improving all the time.

In the interests of full disclosure, I'm a recipient of a Skip Dan. I tested for 3rd Dan Kukkiwon in (I think) 1995 and 5th Dan Kukkiwon at the end of 2010. I'd taken about a 3 year break during that time. My reason for not testing was twofold: 1) a lack of belief in the national association's impartiality and 2) my local instructor being almost against testing. He got his 5th Dan about 2000 and said that he wasn't interested in testing again, he was happy at 5th Dan. So most of the students also never bothered testing.

I happened to be in contact with my original instructor (himself a Kukkiwon 8th Dan and 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master at the time), he assessed my skill level and said that I was easily at 5th Dan level. He tested me and put the application in to Kukkiwon explaining the two reasons above and it was approved without problem.

Since then I've tested for my Kukkiwon 6th Dan and Changmookwan 7th Dan (and will test for KKW 7th Dan/CMK 8th Dan in about 4 years). So, I don't regret my skip dan, feel my skill level was appropriate and have since moved past it, so it's a bit of a non-issue. I've been to Korea 5 times since then (and going again in July), I'm also now a 2nd Class Kukkiwon-certified Master Instructor and 3rd Class Kukkiwon-certified Poom/Dan Examiner - so I've certainly been continuing to learn/train since then. But, like a Reddit AMA I'm happy to discuss the skip dan.

Don't get me wrong, I think that candidates should be obviously performing at the target level, and should have put in the training years (I had 3 years out, but if I'd stopped in 1995 and started again in 2009 I wouldn't have done it). But I don't think Skip Dans are a bad thing, used correctly.

 

[andyjeffries]

While we're on the subject, how does someone who is the highest rank in an area continue to grow?

I mean, if Betty Backick has been running her own dojang for 10 years with little to no oversight, where is her deeper understanding coming from?

(I'm genuinely curious, I'm not just trying to be facetious).

Personally I'm in a town (and county) where I'm the highest ranked Kukkiwon/Changmookwan master. I continue to develop by maintaining a close relationship with my instructor (who visits me or I visit him), by attending seminars and training courses put on by high ranking masters and grandmasters (and official Kukkiwon ones), by going to Korea to train with some master-friends of mine (or flying them here). I do my best to stay on top of current students and pass them on accurately. So even though I have no "oversight" (my instructor isn't a daily sight in my club, nor does he have any power over my decisions/teaching style), I still gain a deeper understanding and continue to grow.

 

[andyjeffries]

That is a problem. Not one I’ve seen, but one I heard about from my Judo/Shotokan instructor. Not so much an issue with skipping dans as with promotion beyond qualification.

And this is always a problem even without skip dans. I know plenty of people (including one recently) that received a higher Dan rank that I would NEVER have promoted that high. The Kukkiwon poom/dan examiner course told us not to worry about other people's standards, just to worry about our own - and I try to live by that, but I think promoting people to a rank they really aren't qualified for will happen with or without skip dans.

 

[andyjeffries]

The belt system has to mean something for the belt system to work.

I think it does, but maybe it means something different to other people. For example, in the west we see a black belt and think they're an expert - a trained killer! However, in Korea this is simply a beginner rank. You know the basics, but still need a lot of help.

Same with 4th Dan - in the UK, this is commonly seen as a master rank (and in Korea too, although they also need the Kukkiwon course graduate certificate. However, in Korea they see 4th/5th Dans as paid instructors working for a 6th Dan upwards, so they are the first level of instructors (because Koreans will commonly get 4th Poom before they turn 18 and then 5th Dan at 21/22).

So expectations of the belt system can be very different in meaning.

For example, I'm a 7th Dan Changmookwan. Which means I'm thinking differently than I did when I was a 3rd Dan (or even a 5th Dan). I'm now thinking about how I can pass Taekwondo on accurately, what generation of instructors am I leaving for the future, how can I help Taekwondo's popularity (and I teach in a non-profit-ethos club, so I don't care about getting more students in to make me rich - I don't take a single penny from the account), etc. So my higher rank means something to me. To others they may see an overweight guy, knowing I can't jump up and simultaneously do the splits and think I'm not worth my grade. Whatever...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And this is always a problem even without skip dans. I know plenty of people (including one recently) that received a higher Dan rank that I would NEVER have promoted that high. The Kukkiwon poom/dan examiner course told us not to worry about other people's standards, just to worry about our own - and I try to live by that, but I think promoting people to a rank they really aren't qualified for will happen with or without skip dans.

I think there will always be some of that. Even with objective standards, there will still be significant variations among instructors.

 

[Buka]

While we're on the subject, how does someone who is the highest rank in an area continue to grow?

Aggressively. You go get it. As best you can with what you have to work with.

 

[TrueJim]

That is a problem. Not one I’ve seen, but one I heard about from my Judo/Shotokan instructor. Not so much an issue with skipping dans as with promotion beyond qualification.

This is a good point. Promotion beyond qualification is a problem that's independent of skip-dan promotion. You can promote somebody who's not qualified even under a normal 1-grade promotion.

 

[JR 137]

The founder of my former organization was double promoted at one point - he went from 4th dan to 6th dan.

He left his previous organization to start his own. He was a 4th dan when he left. He was working with several MAists in and out of the area, and was a 4th dan for about 10-15 years. He was a former somewhat international Kyokushin competitor and an Army boxing champion. Several of the people he was working with offered to promote him on a few occasions, but he declined. The story goes his student’s were all catching up to him in rank, so a few of the people he was working with at the time got together and finally promoted him during a demonstration where he had no clue that they were going to do it. He felt honored by it and accepted it, but he didn’t make any production about it when he got back to the dojo. I heard he walked in and started warmups without saying anything, and only very briefly talked about it when the students asked about his new belt and congratulated him. He gave a very, very brief speech of sorts, then said “now can we continue with class?”

 

[Flying Crane]

I seem to recall reading that Gichin Funakoshi adopted the belt system after he had been training and teaching for quite some time. He had students who had studied with him for a long time, and he ranked some of them as high as 6th dan. So going from zero belt rank directly to 6th dan is quite a “skip dan” grading.

The thing is, if that accurately reflects his level, then it’s appropriate. It wouldn’t make sense to make the guy a yellow belt just because the teacher adopted a new ranking system.

I think the negative reaction of some people is based on how this could be abused. Some people have unrealistic notions of how great they are, and might come to expect it. There can be an arrogance that is part of it. That’s not realistic nor appropriate.

But under the right circumstances, if one is training within a group that uses a ranking system, it can be appropriate.

Personally I am not a fan of the whole ranking system, I think it could be done away with or at least simplified a lot and the multiple dan grades should be eliminated. But that is a different discussion.

 

[JR 137]

I seem to recall reading that Gichin Funakoshi adopted the belt system after he had been training and teaching for quite some time. He had students who had studied with him for a long time, and he ranked some of them as high as 6th dan. So going from zero belt rank directly to 6th dan is quite a “skip dan” grading.

The thing is, if that accurately reflects his level, then it’s appropriate. It wouldn’t make sense to make the guy a yellow belt just because the teacher adopted a new ranking system.

I think the negative reaction of some people is based on how this could be abused. Some people have unrealistic notions of how great they are, and might come to expect it. There can be an arrogance that is part of it. That’s not realistic nor appropriate.

But under the right circumstances, if one is training within a group that uses a ranking system, it can be appropriate.

Personally I am not a fan of the whole ranking system, I think it could be done away with or at least simplified a lot and the multiple dan grades should be eliminated. But that is a different discussion.

I’m pretty sure it was 5th dan, not 6th. I think 5th dan was the highest at the time, and 6-10 were added later. There’s a famous Funakoshi student who’s name escapes me at the moment. He refused to be promoted past 5th dan because he said that was the highest rank Shotokan was supposed to have.

I can’t remember where I read the interview with him. If I come across it, I’ll post it.

 

[JR 137]

I seem to recall reading that Gichin Funakoshi adopted the belt system after he had been training and teaching for quite some time. He had students who had studied with him for a long time, and he ranked some of them as high as 6th dan. So going from zero belt rank directly to 6th dan is quite a “skip dan” grading.

The thing is, if that accurately reflects his level, then it’s appropriate. It wouldn’t make sense to make the guy a yellow belt just because the teacher adopted a new ranking system.

I think the negative reaction of some people is based on how this could be abused. Some people have unrealistic notions of how great they are, and might come to expect it. There can be an arrogance that is part of it. That’s not realistic nor appropriate.

But under the right circumstances, if one is training within a group that uses a ranking system, it can be appropriate.

Personally I am not a fan of the whole ranking system, I think it could be done away with or at least simplified a lot and the multiple dan grades should be eliminated. But that is a different discussion.

Some good information in this article...
How the masters got their ranks: the origins of karate ranks – Judo Info

Not the interview I was talking about in my previous post, but this is far more informative regarding the early dan ranking. Of note is that in the beginning, it stated Funakoshi and his karate peers weren’t awarded specific dan rank, only teaching levels/licenses. Paraphrased - they were the founder of the school, so dan level didn’t apply to them, only their students.

 

[Buka]

My first instructor promoted himself. He even advertised in newspaper ads teaching styles he had never trained in, probably never even saw.

But as the old proverb says, "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

He did.

 

[andyjeffries]

The earliest skip dan known about is this:

"In 1883, Dr. Kano divided students into two groups, which was the non-graded (mudansha) and the graded (yudansha)," according to Naoki Murata, curator of the Kodokan Judo Museum. "The first yudansha, or shodan grade, were two famous students in the Kodokan at that time, named Tsunejiro Tomita and Shiro Saigo. These two students were also the first ones promoted to second dan a year later."

Shiro Saigo, immortalized in Tsuneo Tomita's fictional novel "Sugata Sanshiro" and Akira Kurasawa's 1940s movie adaptation about the infamous tournament between judo and jujutsu, skipped third dan and was promoted directly to fourth dan the following year in 1885, Muraka reports.

Matsumoto, David. An Introduction to Kodokan Judo History and Philosophy, Hom-No Tomosha, 1996

 

[TrueJim]

"In 1883, Dr. Kano divided students into two groups, which was the non-graded (mudansha) and the graded (yudansha)," according to Naoki Murata, curator of the Kodokan Judo Museum. "The first yudansha, or shodan grade, were two famous students in the Kodokan at that time, named Tsunejiro Tomita and Shiro Saigo. These two students were also the first ones promoted to second dan a year later.

Gurrrr! This is the problem with modern martial arts! I remember back in the 1700s, dan grades used to mean something. But ever since the mid-1800s, standards have relaxed to the point of being nonexistent. Dr. Kano probably just did it to bring in more business. His school was more of a kids' summer camp than a real martial arts studio anyway.

#thegoodolddays #youkidsgetoffmylawn #thingswerebetterwhenIwasyoung #yourschoolisaMcDojobutmyschoolislegit

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

People have always whinged about young adults. Here's proof

 

[Jaeimseu]

I should have applied for skip dan several years ago but didn’t. I now kind of wish I had done it. Rank doesn’t matter until it matters.


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[skribs]

I should have applied for skip dan several years ago but didn’t. I now kind of wish I had done it. Rank doesn’t matter until it matters.


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I'm curious - why does it matter now, and why didn't it matter then?

 

[Jaeimseu]

I'm curious - why does it matter now, and why didn't it matter then?

I was at a stage where I was almost proud of not testing. My thinking was probably a little too concerned with other people’s rank and my perception of their ability. At this point I don’t worry much about what other people have.

It doesn’t often really matter now, but occasionally having a higher rank makes it easier to “get a seat” at certain tables. All things considered, it’d be better to have it than not have it, given the choice.


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