shot placement vs speed

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by PhotonGuy, Jun 27, 2017.

  1. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

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    So lets say you can draw and shoot with good speed and have shot placement where you can land multiple shots right over the center of the heart in an area that has the diameter of one inch so that your shots would just about be landing on top of each other. Now, lets say you could be a little faster and land your shots in the same spot, over the heart, but now your shots are wider so that they cover an area that has a diameter of three inches. You are still hitting the heart and lungs but by speeding up a bit you sacrifice some of the pinpoint precision that allows you to land your shots all within a one inch diameter. As for me, I would rather be a little bit faster and still be able to hit the vitals. That way even if the bad guy is a bit more accurate than me I will shoot him first and I will hit him in a spot that will hopefully stop him before he is able to get off any shots at me.
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I would choose the greater accuracy (given the differences listed) with only a small preference. I'd assume my results (accuracy) would be worse under stress, so I'd want to keep accuracy.
     
  3. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    I want to shoot as fast as I get all my shots in a 8-10 inch diameter circle. It does no good to stack rounds on top of each other.

    Also most gun fights are gonna happen at a range that you shouldn't be using your sights....just pointing and shooting.
     
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  4. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

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    Supposedly in stress your accuracy is cut in half. So your shots would be twice as far apart in a gunfight as they would be at the range. So at the range if you can get your shots in a 3 inch diameter area over the heart, in the heat of a gunfight your shots will cover an area about 6 inches in diameter. So you would still be hitting the heart and lungs.
     
  5. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    The problem is most people train to shoot targets......not gunfight.

    Of course your accuracy is gonna go to crap if you only train to take your time and shoot targets and then you are put into a position of having to shoot fast, move, use cover, and reload......you don't have that muscle memory.

    Instead you should be moving, shooting fast, and improving your ability to reload and get back into the fight....pushing yourself to get faster, smoother, and more accurate under pressure.....build muscle memory in gunfighting.
     
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  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'm assuming the initial point of aim is off. The 3/6 inch diameter is a measure of precision. Let's assume I'm also off in the general aim (say, 3 inches further right, for the center of the group). Still, there's a reasonable argument to be made in either direction. As I said, it's not a strong preference.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Unfortunately, most places people can go to shoot don't allow any of that (moving, drawing, etc.).
     
  8. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Thats what you get for being city folk. ;)

    There are some good private companies out there that do courses on tactical gunfighting. Also, 3 Gun competitions will improve your skills as well.

     
  9. DanT

    DanT Black Belt

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    Just put 3-5 rounds centre of mass and be aware of what's going on around you. Don't worry to much about where your hitting, I guarantee under stress, your accuracy will pretty much go to **** anyways.
     
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'm aware of the tactical training courses - those cost far more than range time, though. And even in the country (where I grew up), there are scant few places I'd consider safe to shoot anymore, as population in rural areas becomes more dense out here. So most people don't get training beyond stand and shoot. Nearly all of my additional training has been with snap caps.
     
  11. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Moving to cover, or just moving period if cover is not available, is vastly more important.

    The only thing that stops instantly is a CNS hit. It doesn't matter a whole lot if your hits score 1/10th of a second faster than his. Return fire sucks and return hits suck more. You don't need to be "faster" you need to be "fast enough." You don't need to be "more accurate" you need to be "accurate enough." Fast enough and accurate enough for what? That depends on the circumstances.

    If you put 6 bullets in the heart it still takes time for the bad guy to die. Dying ain't dead. Dying people often don't know they're dying. If it takes 15 seconds for a person with 6 bullets in his heart to keel over (it'll probably take more, but whatever), how is being 1/10th of a second faster going to help?

    Statistically, it seems to take about 3-ish seconds on average for trained people to react to an unplanned stimulus and draw from concealment and put a shot on target. For very skilled and experienced shooters, that can be cut down to maybe 1.5-ish seconds. Unless you get a CNS hit the 1.5 seconds difference between the very highly skilled and trained and the pretty well trained and practiced is still well within the time period that a dying-but-not-dead bad guy can still be operating. How much time and effort went into cutting that 3 down to 1.5 which might potentially have been better spent building other skills from "suck" to "OK" instead of expending the effort on The Law of Diminishing Returns building a "good" skill to "amazing?"

    According to research done by Active Response Training, if you don't move in a gunfight you have an 85% chance of being shot, and 51% chance of being shot in the torso while if you move and shoot you have a 47% chance of being hit, with 11% chance of taking a torso hit, but if you move to cover and return fire your chance of being shot drop to 26% with a 6% torso hit rate.

    So instead of spending time working on cutting your draw time down by a fraction of a second, practice moving (preferably to cover), drawing on the move, and returning accurate fire while on the move.

    A lot of studies and after action reviews indicate that even people trained to shoot two-handed will frequently draw and fire one-handed while under stress, so spend time doing one-handed shooting (while moving to cover).

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  12. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

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    You should take shooting classes where I take them. They do all of that.
     
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't know of anyplace around here that does. There may be something, but I've not found it.
     
  14. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    generally speaking the first person to get shots on target wins. that is not draw speed, that is shots on target. there is a whole lot of chaos to get through to get your shots on target. Iklawson is right, you have to move. you also have to learn to fire from odd positions. forget your sights. in many incidences you dont even see them.
    i would say your number one objective is to ingrain good habits. make them hard wired into your brain. a smooth draw will beat shooting yourself in the thigh or calf every time.
     
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  15. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Gun out and putting shots down range is what is important followed up by shooting while moving.

    We are finding that taking a more aggressive approach works better in a gunfight.

    In force on force training we are seeing that being aggressive initially and then moving to cover while firing gives us better results.

    There has been many instances of officers being shot as they are moving to cover. You have to move while maintaining the ability to fire and cover yourself.
     
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  16. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Just went to the range yesterday with some of the boys from work.....

    RangePic.jpg

    And then went right across the street...

    ukumehame-beach.jpg


    But it's not all fun and games. There's always the threat of getting sand in your smoothie.
    (I know, I suck)
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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  17. marques

    marques Master Black Belt

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    Under stress we tend to increase speed and decrease accuracy. So I train more accuracy. In ideal conditions (were stress does affect performance) I still find both, speed an accuracy, useful. Speed to keep the opponent busy, and eventually volume does the job. Accuracy to finish quicker, one good shot, when the opportunity comes.
     
  18. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    im less worried about sand in my smoothie than sand in my underwear.
     
  19. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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  20. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    We have range day Friday. No beach but we have a fish fry afterwards.
     
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