Accuracy vs Speed

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by PhotonGuy, Jan 14, 2015.

  1. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,658
    Likes Received:
    398
    Trophy Points:
    208
    This thread is a bit old but I am going to revive it. There's the debate of speed vs accuracy. Some people have said that accuracy is most important but how about this. Lets say that when taking a bunch of shots to the center of the chest you're accurate enough that all your shots can be covered with a quarter. Now, lets say you can be a little bit faster but at the expense of being a little less accurate. By being a little bit faster you now need a coffee mug to cover all your shots. So would you rather be a little slower and be able to cover your shots with a quarter or would you rather be a little faster and require a coffee mug to cover your shots?
     
  2. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    21,877
    Likes Received:
    2,096
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Northern VA
    As described... the difference is likely to be meaningless. You're talking a 1 inch circle versus a 4 inch circle. Assuming shooting at center mass... Yeah, that's not likely to make a difference worth noting. Coarse ground hamburger versus medium ground in the chest cavity. Still hamburger in the chest cavity.

    But here's the real thing... it's not the grouping that matters. It's whether you get a hit or not. Never shoot faster than you can actually hit the freakin' target. Only after you hit it in the first place do you need to worry about groupings.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,610
    Likes Received:
    844
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Spokane Valley WA
    Buy a shot gun :)
     
  4. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    17,279
    Likes Received:
    4,190
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    It's a bit difficult to conceal a shotgun... even one of the tactical bullpup designs would require a trench coat to conceal.
     
  5. marques

    marques Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,187
    Likes Received:
    380
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Essex, UK
    I apologise first training accuracy. Then accuracy and speed together. Anyone alone is worthless.
    When fighting... It depends on the moment. To made (too) simple, speed to open the guard, accuracy to KO.
     
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,562
    Likes Received:
    7,492
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I'm curious about this statement that caliber is irrelevant. I would assume that is meant to exclude the extremes, as surely the caliber is relevant when comparing .45 or .44mag to .22lr. So, am I right in assuming this is in reference to "defensive" calibers (most define as starting with either .38 or 9mm)?

    And I see a lot of argument back and forth about accuracy. I'd like to point out that some of those points are actually about "precision", not "accuracy". Accuracy means hitting your target (so, if you're shooting center-mass, you hit center-mass), whereas precision is about how close together your hits are. One can theoretically be very precise without being accurate (5 shots within 1 inch of each other, but 8 inches away from the intended target, so perhaps COM shots landing just to the left of the person's side, entirely missing within a 1-inch diameter). One can also be accurate without being highly precise (5 shots in center mass, within an 8-inch diameter). The ideal is to have high accuracy and reasonable precision. Accuracy is paramount, since (by definition) low accuracy means not hitting the intended target.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,562
    Likes Received:
    7,492
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Let's hope it's not the other guy. :)
     
  8. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    17,279
    Likes Received:
    4,190
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    Since we're talking about defensive shooting, then yes, I think it's reasonable to assume that I'm talking about centerfire handgun rounds.

    Accuracy means hitting your target. OK, I agree with that. In a defensive shoot, my target is your heart and/or your brain. If I am accurate, you will die. If I am accurate, I will also be precise, since my shots will be hitting the target.
     
  9. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Messages:
    7,766
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    208
    I wouldn't call caliber irrelevant, I would say it's not as important as accuracy or speed respectively.

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,346
    Likes Received:
    1,098
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    It's not irrelevant, but it's also, apparently, not nearly as important as certain factions of The Great Caliber Wars would prefer to believe.

    An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

    .22 (short, long and long rifle)
    % of hits that were fatal - 34%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
    One-shot-stop % - 31%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

    .45 ACP
    % of hits that were fatal - 29%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
    One-shot-stop % - 39%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%

    Statistically speaking, these two are nearly identical. I'm not sure what his Margin of Error is, but chances are pretty good that the difference between these two falls within it.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk

    .22 (short, long and long rifle)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Messages:
    7,766
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    208
    You need to read the last few paragraphs of that article. There's more to his point than the numbers.

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
     
  12. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,346
    Likes Received:
    1,098
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Why would you assume that I haven't?

    It was specifically because of the last few paragraphs that I posted the entire listing, including the "% of hits that were fatal" and "% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)" not just the "one shot stop."

    Perhaps I'm not quite understanding what you're writing here.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Messages:
    7,766
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Copy.

    I wasn't sure what stat you were pointing to as evidence there.



    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,562
    Likes Received:
    7,492
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    You've chosen a precise target in referring to the heart, so in this case, your accuracy requirement includes precision. My point was to those saying accuracy was about the spread. The spread is just the precision, and only matters after you're accurate. In your example, if you're aiming for the heart, it only matters how far apart the shots are if they are generally centered around the heart. If they are 2" apart, and 12" to the left of the heart, the precision counts for nothing. Which, I think, was exactly your point in choosing that as one of your targets.

    With the head shots, on the other hand, (assuming frontal shots, so we have to allow for face shots to count, perhaps) we have a larger area. Shots within a 6" spread could be considered accurate, while that would likely not be on-target with the heart shots. The need for precision differs because of the size of the target. In both cases, accuracy would properly refer to the center of the group being roughly the same as the center of the target.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    25,562
    Likes Received:
    7,492
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    That's interesting. I'd have expected a minor difference between, say, 9mm and .45ACP, but not the performance shown for the .22's. I do notice the .22's had higher accuracy, which likely offsets the physical advantage of the .45ACP (which had a lower incidence of "incapacitating" shots).

    Thanks for sharing that, Kirk!

    EDIT: In re-reading your post, I see I swapped some numbers in my head. I wonder why the difference in stopping is so small, when the .45 actually had a higher incidence of hits to the head/torso. Hmm....
     
  16. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Messages:
    7,766
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    208
    The authors point about what a "stop" means is important. In this "study" stop means the confrontation ended, not death or physical incapacitation.

    Most people in this example fled the field (so to speak) after a hit with a .22

    That point is important, but I take internet based "blog studies" with a grain of salt...

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
     
  17. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,346
    Likes Received:
    1,098
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Which is why the "% of hits that were fatal" and the "% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)" are important; because they don't represent "crap! he's shooting at me!"

    Which this one isn't.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  18. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Messages:
    7,766
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    208
  19. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,346
    Likes Received:
    1,098
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Yeah. I've seen it. If Ellifritz is "asking the wrong question" then so too is this author. He makes the case that "stopping power" is a misleading statement and that "time to stop" is far more important. However, the best research has indicated that any firearm delivering energy on target in the range of .40S&W and "under" (including the .45ACP) experiences an almost unquantifiable statistical spread in "time to stop." The truth is that he's asking for a statistic which is impossible, quite literally, to create, not that people haven't been trying to do so for decades. The first attempt I can recall is Fairbairn's "Timetable of Death." The truth is that the only way to get "kinda close" to the statistic that he's after is to compile statistics of real world shootings and just accept that there is going to be some level of Statistical Uncertainty.

    Here's an article which I think you'll like more :) :
    The 4 Ways to Stop an Opponent

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Messages:
    7,766
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    208
    IMO "psychological stopping" is a meaningless term in this discussion. Hell, a BG just running off if a cap gun was presented (or missed shots from any weapon) sort of qualifies....

    I believe you need to carry a handgun that delivers the most powerful round you can accurately use. With factors such as capacity and size/ease of carry as considerations.123
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

a huge coffee

,

accuracy versus speed