Shame on you.... for misrepresenting yourself.... and your ability.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by NYFIGHTSOURCE, Feb 1, 2019.

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  1. JR 137

    JR 137 Grandmaster

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    Semantics IMO. I view a fraud as someone who genuinely knows what they’re selling is BS, but keeps passing it off as legit to others.

    The idiot, on the other hand, blindly accepts what he’s been sold and genuinely thinks he’s teaching something effective and legit.

    The fraud knows and doesn’t care. The idiot has no clue.
     
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  2. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    I like pie.
     
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  3. JR 137

    JR 137 Grandmaster

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    I never said it was only good for fighting.

    What I was saying is back when I started training in ‘94, most new people came in looking for SD training. They wanted other things too, but SD was typically first and foremost. The other stuff was a bonus; a welcomed bonus, but a bonus. Nowadays, it seems significantly less people are looking for SD; they’re looking for exercise primarily, and the other stuff as a bonus.
     
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  4. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't disagree, but the type of pie is important. I don't much care for coconut cream, for example. But I do approve of pie, in general.
     
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  5. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Is that what this is about?

    Not saying you don't have a right to be angry but here are some realities.

    1. If you teach what you know then you are an instructor. I can call myself an instructor of Jow Ga Kung fu. I don't need paper work for that. Teaching what I know makes me an instructor. What I can't do is call myself a Sifu of Jow Ga because that is a different process. I could develop my own fighting system and I can call myself Sifu all I want.
    2. Delusional in their ability - Fighting with kung fu, tai chi or anything beyond basic kickboxing is not easy. There are people out there who know their stuff and couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag.
    3. If I were to take karate now. There will be a lot of people who are going to lose against someone with less than one year of training.

    I think you are right about that, on multiple levels.
     
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  6. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Just on a side note. If anyone trains with me,.. I hope I don't let you down. lol. because damn. someone is upset. lol
     
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  7. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge 2nd Black Belt

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    Are there any videos on YouTube of you enjoying pie? If not it's just talk.
     
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  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Let me preface my post by saying that I reached the "teaching" rank in my primary art (so was approved to teach it), and have instructor certification built into my own curriculum, so I have no problem with those processes existing.

    I disagree, almost entirely, with the idea that someone must be approved to teach before they have something of value. Nor do they need the blessing of their instructor (unless they gave their word they wouldn't teach without it). Someone saying they are an instructor isn't lying unless they don't instruct. Now, saying they are a certified or approved instructor when they are not is entirely different. Saying they are an instructor within an organization (if said organization has standards for approved instructors) is different. But some independent martial artist teaching at his own school/program is an instructor, regardless of rank earned. There's no misrepresentation.

    Note that my main disagreement is twofold, Firstly, that a given rank makes a better instructor, as an absolute. There are people who teach quite well, well shy of the "teacher" rank in their style. There are also very senior martial artists with rank well beyond the "teacher" rank who are not very good at teaching (including some who have been teaching many years).

    Now, I don't know who the individual is that you are talking about (and, mind, bashing and fraud busting isn't allowed here, anyway), so I can't speak to that situation. But your blanket statement doesn't sit well with me as a generic statement.
     
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  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You seem to be conflating "ripped off" and "lied to". If they taught you what you went there to be taught, then you weren't ripped off. If they said they were certified, but weren't, then you were lied to.
     
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  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Okay, here's a different issue. There are instructors who think what they teach will work. Some are wrong about that. Are they lying, or just misinformed?
     
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  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Find someone who will issue a certificate. In a case like that, I don't see anything shady in getting a certificate from a source I would normally consider dishonest to use (because it's about the intent)..
     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Firstly, they are a teacher, if they are teaching.

    Secondly, there are a lot of factors that could go into that sparring scenario, so seeing just those details I can imagine it either being a really bad martial artist who is teaching, a really skilled 1st year student (they exist), and several other things that require neither or both.

    The false papers are another issue, if they intend to use them to represent themselves with a rank/approval they do not have. Of course, we'd also have to determine what you mean by "false papers".
     
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  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It's not about the teacher not being allowed to give certifications - some arts/systems simply do not. And in some places, they are required (I've run into it) to be able to teach/run a program there.
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Of your three suggestions, the first is workable in some cases, but only if you can find someone willing to do it (which may be harder to do that I think you expect). I think you misunderstand how easy it is to find (and fund) space to teach in.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't think it's a stretch to say people can learn to act with respect and kindness while training in MA. The same is true of any situation where they have to "place nicely" with other people, regardless of what they're training to do there.
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The level of experience the pie has matters, too. Though it's an inverse relationship to how much I like it.
     
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  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I don't require a certificate to teach Jow Ga. The certificate only comes into play in the context of me being part of an organization. A person doesn't need a certificate to fix computers, but if you want to be recognized by Cisco or CompTIA as someone who they will vouch for then you'll need a certificate.

    I didn't have an instructor's certification when I taught the the Jow Ga school I used to attend. However my right to instruct was approved on multiple levels. Would I create my own certificate? Personally no, but that's only because I don't put much weight into them when it comes to martial arts, unless someone wants to learn from a specific organization. If my customers care about it, then I would open my own school outside of my organization and then certify myself as Chief Instructor. It would be less of a certification and more of an acknowledgement that all certifications for my organization comes through me. As I gain more students then my title would naturally increase in order to make room for the new leaders within my organization.

    If someone needed a certification for employment at a college then that would be the better way to do it in comparison to say that certification was earned under another. It would just be easier to say "I trained under."

    From reading the OP's post it would seem that things are less about the certification and more about how the person presented himself.

    I know of people who were certified instructors and certified Sifu's only to get kicked out of the organization that they belonged to. While the person can still claim to be a Sifu he can no longer claim to be a Sifu of that organization. Basically the certification that he had is void so any new certification will either be of his own creation or by a third party not related to Jow Ga.
     
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  18. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    Pie is only valid with whip cream on top.....just sayin
     
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  19. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    There are some problems with the OP analogy of the contractor building something for you. The analogy has a customer receiving a finished product. It is the product that is the problem not the contractor. You could be an unlicensed or a licenced contractor, what matters is the delivery of a product that meets specifications.
    In martial arts there is no such thing as a finished product, there is only a journey. What matters most is the shared relationship between the student and the teacher. Most students today will have a continuum of teacher/ student relationships. If the teacher inspired you to keep training and learning more, they did their job. If the student enjoyed his time training , then there was value in it.
    All the rest of this chatter about rank and learning to fight is ego, resentment and bitterness.
     
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  20. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    we could also turn the problem around,
    there are 100% legit high ranking instructors who may be the head of complete organizations, but if they are arrogant and narcissistic and this person was your first teacher....you leave discouraged never to return to martial arts because "HE was supposed to be the best" and you let that bias ruin all the potential of what you could have been.123
     
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