Shame on you.... for misrepresenting yourself.... and your ability.

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

Martial Arts is something to me more than just the ability to fight. Some people get into martial arts initially to be able to defend themselves but over the course of time you also develop so many more positive attributes from training. Usually you never end up needing to defend yourself cause you also learn how to walk away from confrontation and avoid it.

You develop self discipline, self confidence, hopefully a better moral code in life in general. You learn respect and honor. You treat others with kindness. You evolve and usually become a better person.

So I ask this question. If you were not a contractor and you hired someone to build an addition on your house.. who you thought they knew what they were doing. And later found out that you got ripped off and paid tons of money to find out it was all done wrong. Or if you hired someone to fix your car and to just find that it was worse. How would you feel?

This happens in the martial arts. People misrepresent themselves. And well I have an issue with that. If you say you are a Master, a Sifu, a Guru, etc. Then dammit.... be that. Do not lie and say you are if your Sensei or instructor would have never awarded you the Certificate to teach. Do not claim to be what you are not.
Also people who pay for some certificate from a online place is a scam also. Obviously they also have no moral in misrepresenting themselves. I have seen people in my area pay hundreds of dollars to an organization so that they can they are certified by that organization. Even when the instructor has long been dead. Just cause the spouse of the instructor finds it as a source of income to do mail order Certificates. Suddenly someone who has become an Instructor of art X over night. Come on. Now most people training in the arts will see this as for what it is. But for the young child who is becoming a student and their parents who is paying good money and time and effort to get their child there should get what they paid for. Not a scam. This is disgraceful. And ultimately it's the downfall that is causing people to shy away from training. Esp. in the traditional arts.

Disclaimer..... I am not saying that a piece of paper will make you a good fighter. I know a lot of people who are great fighters... without that piece of paper. But if you are teaching and claiming that you are an instructor of that art... then you should have the blessing from the instructor that you trained with for years. Not someone who gives you a certificate as a favor. If your instructor felt you were good enough and understood the art... they would have given your the Certificate and blessing. And would have been proud to have you represent them in the art as a certified teacher. If they did not... then it is clear there was a reason they did not. Most instructors will have you assist or teach classes under them. Helping you become an instructor. Again... if they did not do this... it's a problem in my eyes.

I was saddened to see some people on this forum advocate for someone else to actually forge a certificate. This is a problem. You greatly diminish the public's respect to martial arts if you falsely represent your ability. This is just wrong.

Now without naming the person.... I will say that I know of the persons ability. And their level of expertise. And understand why their past instructor did not certify them. I have heard numerous counts of this person in the area and their misrepresenting themselves. Even recently I had a new student come from another school. And there is lots of stories about this persons expertise... or lack of and what is going on. This person's name has come back to me over and over from various instructors.

Now one can stop an individual from misrepresenting themselves to the public. You would have hoped that your training in martial arts gave you more code of conduct as a martial arts and a human to do such.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why do I feel like I know who you are talking about, both the person who got certified and the person who gave the certification

 

[skribs]

Martial Arts is something to me more than just the ability to fight. Some people get into martial arts initially to be able to defend themselves but over the course of time you also develop so many more positive attributes from training. Usually you never end up needing to defend yourself cause you also learn how to walk away from confrontation and avoid it.

You develop self discipline, self confidence, hopefully a better moral code in life in general. You learn respect and honor. You treat others with kindness. You evolve and usually become a better person.

So I ask this question. If you were not a contractor and you hired someone to build an addition on your house.. who you thought they knew what they were doing. And later found out that you got ripped off and paid tons of money to find out it was all done wrong. Or if you hired someone to fix your car and to just find that it was worse. How would you feel?

This happens in the martial arts. People misrepresent themselves. And well I have an issue with that. If you say you are a Master, a Sifu, a Guru, etc. Then dammit.... be that. Do not lie and say you are if your Sensei or instructor would have never awarded you the Certificate to teach. Do not claim to be what you are not.
Also people who pay for some certificate from a online place is a scam also. Obviously they also have no moral in misrepresenting themselves. I have seen people in my area pay hundreds of dollars to an organization so that they can they are certified by that organization. Even when the instructor has long been dead. Just cause the spouse of the instructor finds it as a source of income to do mail order Certificates. Suddenly someone who has become an Instructor of art X over night. Come on. Now most people training in the arts will see this as for what it is. But for the young child who is becoming a student and their parents who is paying good money and time and effort to get their child there should get what they paid for. Not a scam. This is disgraceful. And ultimately it's the downfall that is causing people to shy away from training. Esp. in the traditional arts.

Disclaimer..... I am not saying that a piece of paper will make you a good fighter. I know a lot of people who are great fighters... without that piece of paper. But if you are teaching and claiming that you are an instructor of that art... then you should have the blessing from the instructor that you trained with for years. Not someone who gives you a certificate as a favor. If your instructor felt you were good enough and understood the art... they would have given your the Certificate and blessing. And would have been proud to have you represent them in the art as a certified teacher. If they did not... then it is clear there was a reason they did not. Most instructors will have you assist or teach classes under them. Helping you become an instructor. Again... if they did not do this... it's a problem in my eyes.

I was saddened to see some people on this forum advocate for someone else to actually forge a certificate. This is a problem. You greatly diminish the public's respect to martial arts if you falsely represent your ability. This is just wrong.

Now without naming the person.... I will say that I know of the persons ability. And their level of expertise. And understand why their past instructor did not certify them. I have heard numerous counts of this person in the area and their misrepresenting themselves. Even recently I had a new student come from another school. And there is lots of stories about this persons expertise... or lack of and what is going on. This person's name has come back to me over and over from various instructors.

Now one can stop an individual from misrepresenting themselves to the public. You would have hoped that your training in martial arts gave you more code of conduct as a martial arts and a human to do such.

This is a long rant for no context. Why didn't you make this post as a reply to the post you're discussing?

 

[jobo]

Martial Arts is something to me more than just the ability to fight. Some people get into martial arts initially to be able to defend themselves but over the course of time you also develop so many more positive attributes from training. Usually you never end up needing to defend yourself cause you also learn how to walk away from confrontation and avoid it.

You develop self discipline, self confidence, hopefully a better moral code in life in general. You learn respect and honor. You treat others with kindness. You evolve and usually become a better person.

So I ask this question. If you were not a contractor and you hired someone to build an addition on your house.. who you thought they knew what they were doing. And later found out that you got ripped off and paid tons of money to find out it was all done wrong. Or if you hired someone to fix your car and to just find that it was worse. How would you feel?

This happens in the martial arts. People misrepresent themselves. And well I have an issue with that. If you say you are a Master, a Sifu, a Guru, etc. Then dammit.... be that. Do not lie and say you are if your Sensei or instructor would have never awarded you the Certificate to teach. Do not claim to be what you are not.
Also people who pay for some certificate from a online place is a scam also. Obviously they also have no moral in misrepresenting themselves. I have seen people in my area pay hundreds of dollars to an organization so that they can they are certified by that organization. Even when the instructor has long been dead. Just cause the spouse of the instructor finds it as a source of income to do mail order Certificates. Suddenly someone who has become an Instructor of art X over night. Come on. Now most people training in the arts will see this as for what it is. But for the young child who is becoming a student and their parents who is paying good money and time and effort to get their child there should get what they paid for. Not a scam. This is disgraceful. And ultimately it's the downfall that is causing people to shy away from training. Esp. in the traditional arts.

Disclaimer..... I am not saying that a piece of paper will make you a good fighter. I know a lot of people who are great fighters... without that piece of paper. But if you are teaching and claiming that you are an instructor of that art... then you should have the blessing from the instructor that you trained with for years. Not someone who gives you a certificate as a favor. If your instructor felt you were good enough and understood the art... they would have given your the Certificate and blessing. And would have been proud to have you represent them in the art as a certified teacher. If they did not... then it is clear there was a reason they did not. Most instructors will have you assist or teach classes under them. Helping you become an instructor. Again... if they did not do this... it's a problem in my eyes.

I was saddened to see some people on this forum advocate for someone else to actually forge a certificate. This is a problem. You greatly diminish the public's respect to martial arts if you falsely represent your ability. This is just wrong.

Now without naming the person.... I will say that I know of the persons ability. And their level of expertise. And understand why their past instructor did not certify them. I have heard numerous counts of this person in the area and their misrepresenting themselves. Even recently I had a new student come from another school. And there is lots of stories about this persons expertise... or lack of and what is going on. This person's name has come back to me over and over from various instructors.

Now one can stop an individual from misrepresenting themselves to the public. You would have hoped that your training in martial arts gave you more code of conduct as a martial arts and a human to do such.

hang on, if you pay to learn a martial art and someone teaches you a ma how have you been ripped off?

 

[wanderingstudent]

When someone comes along and provides a way to measure your ability vs theirs, and you quickly realize you've just been waving your arms in the air; the whole time. But, at least now you have something to measure against; and know.

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

hang on, if you pay to learn a martial art and someone teaches you a ma how have you been ripped off?

If the individual actually teaches you something that is useful and I don't mean conceptually thought up...and never tested. But something that will actually help you... Then you paid for some martial arts training. If on the same hand the person said they were certified to teach Kenpo Karate lets say... and produces a fake cert.... or says they are... Then yes... you learned something from them... that still is something that you are able to apply. But in the same respect you were ripped off and misrepresented.

It's like having work done on your house. If the person says they are a licensed electrician and they do the work... and it short circuits or causes a fire... Dammm you were really ripped off. Even if it works.... you were still ripped off cause you thought it was a licensed electrician.

My point is about misrepresentation. Like my disclaimer said... the paper does not mean you know what you are doing. You can still be skilled without it. Or you can be without the paper... without the skill... know it and still rip people off. And that is what I see happening.

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

When someone comes along and provides a way to measure your ability vs theirs, and you quickly realize you've just been waving your arms in the air; the whole time. But, at least now you have something to measure against; and know.

Yeah... I have come across people who said they trained for several years in an art.... and then when tested with someone outside of their school.... in a friendly manner... they knew that they didn't know what they thought they knew. And felt ripped off.

 

[jobo]

If the individual actually teaches you something that is useful and I don't mean conceptually thought up...and never tested. But something that will actually help you... Then you paid for some martial arts training. If on the same hand the person said they were certified to teach Kenpo Karate lets say... and produces a fake cert.... or says they are... Then yes... you learned something from them... that still is something that you are able to apply. But in the same respect you were ripped off and misrepresented.

It's like having work done on your house. If the person says they are a licensed electrician and they do the work... and it short circuits or causes a fire... Dammm you were really ripped off. Even if it works.... you were still ripped off cause you thought it was a licensed electrician.

My point is about misrepresentation. Like my disclaimer said... the paper does not mean you know what you are doing. You can still be skilled without it. Or you can be without the paper... without the skill... know it and still rip people off. And that is what I see happening.

But it's a bigger question than that, lot of properly cert oeipkee teach a ma that is no use, for actually fighting, arnt they ripping people of as well,?

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

But it's a bigger question than that, lot of properly cert oeipkee teach a ma that is no use, for actually fighting, arnt they ripping people of as well,?

No disrespect....
But the topic was Misrepresenting yourself....(be it a false piece of paper or ability)....

So Jobo... to answer your question in my opinion.... for what it's worth...
What is someone walking in the door to begin with. Are they learning for the sake of just learning the art.? Are they asking to learn the art to protect themselves.? What is the reason? Are they asking to get in shape via the art? What is their intent? And if the instructor says yes.... this art will give you self defense... and it really doesn't... then again... they are misrepresenting what they teach and themselves. It's a rip off.

All misrepresentation. Instructors should be clear on their ability, their level of certification if any, and what the student can expect out of the training. If they are not doing this... it's misrepresentation. And hence.... shame on them for doing it.

 

[JR 137]

Everyone joins an MA for different reasons. Fighting/SD is one of them, but IMO it’s less and less of a priority as time goes by. Not even as time goes by for the student, but more and more people come in with less of a priority to defend themselves over the years.

Regarding misrepresentation, some of that is true. But there’s quite a few who genuinely bought into what they were taught and saw it work in class, so they “know” it works. MAists don’t work out with people outside their school much anymore. They don’t test those things against others. So the guy (hypothetical guy) teaches what he knows and accepts. He’s not misrepresenting anything. Delusions of grandeur perhaps, but if he’s not knowingly and intentionally selling BS, it’s pretty hard to call him a fraud. Idiot, yes; fraud, no.

 

[jobo]

No disrespect....
But the topic was Misrepresenting yourself....(be it a false piece of paper or ability)....

So Jobo... to answer your question in my opinion.... for what it's worth...
What is someone walking in the door to begin with. Are they learning for the sake of just learning the art.? Are they asking to learn the art to protect themselves.? What is the reason? Are they asking to get in shape via the art? What is their intent? And if the instructor says yes.... this art will give you self defense... and it really doesn't... then again... they are misrepresenting what they teach and themselves. It's a rip off.

All misrepresentation. Instructors should be clear on their ability, their level of certification if any, and what the student can expect out of the training. If they are not doing this... it's misrepresentation. And hence.... shame on them for doing it.

So ok, I go to a guy who is not misrepresenting himself , I ask if it's good for SD, he says yes, I sign up and train hard, then I'm attacked and beaten up, he ripped me off didn't he, it's clearly no good for sd,

 

[Dirty Dog]

So ok, I go to a guy who is not misrepresenting himself , I ask if it's good for SD, he says yes, I sign up and train hard, then I'm attacked and beaten up, he ripped me off didn't he, it's clearly no good for sd,

Or maybe you just suck.
Or maybe you were fighting with your beer muscles.
Or maybe you got sucker punched.
Or maybe the other person has more training.
Or maybe the other person was gifted with genes that made them a little faster than you, or have a little better balance, etc.
Or maybe training in Dillmans no-touch knockout wasn't a good choice.

It's way too complicated to draw simple conclusions, especially from a single example.

 

[skribs]

Not all arts or schools give a certificate. What do you do if you learned from a school which did not give certificates, but due to campus bylaws or zoning regulations, you must be certified in order to teach in the area you want to teach?

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

So ok, I go to a guy who is not misrepresenting himself , I ask if it's good for SD, he says yes, I sign up and train hard, then I'm attacked and beaten up, he ripped me off didn't he, it's clearly no good for sd,

Agree...
He totally is

Everyone joins an MA for different reasons. Fighting/SD is one of them, but IMO it’s less and less of a priority as time goes by. Not even as time goes by for the student, but more and more people come in with less of a priority to defend themselves over the years.

Regarding misrepresentation, some of that is true. But there’s quite a few who genuinely bought into what they were taught and saw it work in class, so they “know” it works. MAists don’t work out with people outside their school much anymore. They don’t test those things against others. So the guy (hypothetical guy) teaches what he knows and accepts. He’s not misrepresenting anything. Delusions of grandeur perhaps, but if he’s not knowingly and intentionally selling BS, it’s pretty hard to call him a fraud. Idiot, yes; fraud, no.

What do you think about someone who claims to be a teacher and is not... Is delusional about their ability. Goes somewhere(other school).... and gets their butt handed to them in a sparring situation by some students who has only trained a year. YET..... they still claim they are an instructor.... and wishes to create false papers saying they are... and poses they are??

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

Not all arts or schools give a certificate. What do you do if you learned from a school which did not give certificates, but due to campus bylaws or zoning regulations, you must be certified in order to teach in the area you want to teach?

I never heard that is a teacher is not allowed to give certifications due to any laws... I am not aware of this in the States.....

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

So ok, I go to a guy who is not misrepresenting himself , I ask if it's good for SD, he says yes, I sign up and train hard, then I'm attacked and beaten up, he ripped me off didn't he, it's clearly no good for sd,

Like JR said.... Then he is delusional in his own ego of what he thinks of himself. As any martial artist should probably do.... is go and train with others outside your school. If you are studying an art that does striking... don't just test your anti-grappling answers against a fellow student who is playing the part of a grappler. Go test it in a grappling school. And vice versa. A instructor should not be fixed within a box of their own art in my opinion. You should test what you teach.

 

[skribs]

I never heard that is a teacher is not allowed to give certifications due to any laws... I am not aware of this in the States.....

You misread my post.

• Person goes to a school that does not give certifications, because the teacher simply doesn't believe in them (especially if the school doesn't have "ranks"). So you've taken ten years of training at this school, but you have no physical evidence of your time there.
• Person then wants to teach at a school. The school's bylaws require that you have a certificate in order to teach something. (You don't want some random person who watched a bunch of vSauce and Because Science videos to be your Physics Professor). So you need to prove to the school board that you have the experience in the art, but you don't have that physical proof.

I'm not saying a school isn't allowed to give a certificate. I'm saying if you never got a certificate for your learning, but you require a certificate to teach, then what do you do?

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

Clearly.... intentional misrepresenting who you are and your abilities is what I am saying is shameful.
There is other cases where you are delusional.... And even soooo.. It is not intentional..
It instead shows a lack of due diligence to yourself and your students to make sure that what your teaching is valid. Test it in your school.... test it with others outside your school.

If you are saying you are something your are not... then you are misrepresenting yourself.. If you are presented with evidence of your delusional thoughts on your ability.... and continue.... you are a fraud and again misrepresenting what you are and what you are teaching.

There are people paying for certificates and yet have never stepped on the mats. What? Really? Are people defending this action.? Are people defending the act of falsely creating certifications?

Wow...
What has the martial arts become.?

 

[Dirty Dog]

What do you think about someone who claims to be a teacher and is not... Is delusional about their ability. Goes somewhere(other school).... and gets their butt handed to them in a sparring situation by some students who has only trained a year. YET..... they still claim they are an instructor.... and wishes to create false papers saying they are... and poses they are??

Rubbish. My KJN is 76 years old. I've got any number of 1 year students who could no doubt beat him sparring.

Doesn't change how much he knows, nor does it affect his ability to pass that knowledge on.

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

You misread my post.

• Person goes to a school that does not give certifications, because the teacher simply doesn't believe in them (especially if the school doesn't have "ranks"). So you've taken ten years of training at this school, but you have no physical evidence of your time there.
• Person then wants to teach at a school. The school's bylaws require that you have a certificate in order to teach something. (You don't want some random person who watched a bunch of vSauce and Because Science videos to be your Physics Professor). So you need to prove to the school board that you have the experience in the art, but you don't have that physical proof.

I'm not saying a school isn't allowed to give a certificate. I'm saying if you never got a certificate for your learning, but you require a certificate to teach, then what do you do?

Yes. That's a lot more clear.
And now I also understand a little more. Since I see you were part of the original post.... and you offered some good suggestions.

So... yes... some people are going to require you to show proof of what you are saying... and they require it.
1. The school he trained in does rank and has given blessings etc... to students that have trained. So that is not the situation.
Another case in my area is that some people outright bought certifications without any training in the art.

2. If that person wants to teach somewhere that requires it... go and get it. Go to another school and demonstrate skill and knowledge and acquire it under them. Absolutely an answer... Then you can teach at the location that requires proof.

3. You other option... go teach elsewhere that doesn't require it. Sure... but do not say you are a sifu. Do not misrepresent yourself. Do not go and buy a paper or lie to people saying your are a teacher... or mislead people. That is dishonest.

4. Your last option is perfect... It's being totally honest what you are doing.

Your cut suggestions below.
************************************************************************
Off the top of my head, here are 3 ideas:

1. If your lineage has a letterhead, ask someone well respected in your lineage to draft a certificate for you with a rank like Instructor, Chief Instructor, or Master (depending on what you feel is appropriate for your level). Explain to them it's merely a formality to satisfy requirements at the location you wish to teach.
   
   
2. Find a different college with more lax requirements, or who may be willing to discuss with you and understand there aren't ranks in your art.
   
   
3. Find a location to teach that isn't at a college. Lots of gyms will have areas you can rent for classes. The advantage here is that your students can get a workout at the same location if they want.

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