Shame on you.... for misrepresenting yourself.... and your ability.

[drop bear]

sure, but to be clear, those are either internally imposed requirements or legal, sanctioning certificates. You're right that those definitely exist within competitive organizations. But, if I didn't have an interest in competing in sanctioned events, I could legally open a boxing gym or an MMA gym in short order. I'm not saying I'd be successful, just that there's no legal reason I couldn't. Just that all of the hurdles to open a gym are unrelated to my competence or certification within that art. At most, I might have to change the name.

I don't teach MMA. I teach Street Heavy Intensive Training Martial Arts (aka, ****-MA)

Yeah. You can't even go for a copyright if it is a generic term.

 

[Headhunter]

I know because, as I stated, I also happen to know who is being discussed. Xue might be private, but the person being discussed and accused of being a fraud is NOT as private. He used to be quite active on here a few years back.

Also, NY might not have mentioned names, but he made it pretty clear he was talking about someone who said he had been offered the chance to teach a full-year course at an upstate NY college, but they wanted a certificate that gave him permission to teach. He could not produce one because the place where he trains just doesn't issue them.

Having said all that, I know the person in question, and he is adamant about NOT being identified as a Sifu. NY is partially right in that he was not certified to teach. However, he was given PERMISSION to teach. NY says he "knows this person's instructor." I guarantee you: he means the person's OLD instructor.

Look at it this way: if you are training at Wing Chun School #1, but then you move away and have to start going to Wing Chun School #2 in order to keep training, then why would you need to be certified to teach by Wing Chun School #? You don't train there anymore! And I doubt school #2 would call school #1 and say, "I want to certify this guy to teach. What do you think?" No, sir. The new school wouldn't contact the old one to get "permission" like that.

I don't know what NY's problem is, because the person in question is someone I have known for a while and talk to regularly. I know that, aside from an email they sent to NY last summer where they apologized for how their relationship went sideways, the unnamed person hasn't even THOUGHT about NY for the last two years. Meanwhile, NY is on this site, bashing away and griping about someone who never even utters his name.

Sad, really.

As for fraudbusting, I am not sure what your rules are about that. Since the person is not named, but it is made pretty clear who NY means by the way he describes their "credentials" thread, I think it would be worth looking at. Then again, it's your site, so what do I know?

You only joined today....how do you know this person was active on here years ago?...

 

[Steve]

Is

I know because, as I stated, I also happen to know who is being discussed. Xue might be private, but the person being discussed and accused of being a fraud is NOT as private. He used to be quite active on here a few years back.

Also, NY might not have mentioned names, but he made it pretty clear he was talking about someone who said he had been offered the chance to teach a full-year course at an upstate NY college, but they wanted a certificate that gave him permission to teach. He could not produce one because the place where he trains just doesn't issue them.

Having said all that, I know the person in question, and he is adamant about NOT being identified as a Sifu. NY is partially right in that he was not certified to teach. However, he was given PERMISSION to teach. NY says he "knows this person's instructor." I guarantee you: he means the person's OLD instructor.

Look at it this way: if you are training at Wing Chun School #1, but then you move away and have to start going to Wing Chun School #2 in order to keep training, then why would you need to be certified to teach by Wing Chun School #? You don't train there anymore! And I doubt school #2 would call school #1 and say, "I want to certify this guy to teach. What do you think?" No, sir. The new school wouldn't contact the old one to get "permission" like that.

I don't know what NY's problem is, because the person in question is someone I have known for a while and talk to regularly. I know that, aside from an email they sent to NY last summer where they apologized for how their relationship went sideways, the unnamed person hasn't even THOUGHT about NY for the last two years. Meanwhile, NY is on this site, bashing away and griping about someone who never even utters his name.

Sad, really.

As for fraudbusting, I am not sure what your rules are about that. Since the person is not named, but it is made pretty clear who NY means by the way he describes their "credentials" thread, I think it would be worth looking at. Then again, it's your site, so what do I know?

Wait. Is this... Dang it. I remember... It'll come to me. The guy used to work for the state.

Edit. Are we talking about @wingchun100??

 

[JR 137]

That makes sense. So, not a legal requirement, but a practical one related to credibility.

I’d say more copyright/trademark than anything else.

I could open JR’s Seido Karate today. Unless I have Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura’s expressed written approval, I can be sued for violating his trademark. I can’t pretend to be affiliated with an organization that I’ve not received permission from. Same as any other business. I can’t open an Outback Steakhouse without going through the proper channels.

I could easily open JR’s Karate Dojo. So long as I’m not making claims that are illegal, nothing’s stopping me. Lies aren’t illegal, for the most part. I could also open JR’s Steakhouse. So long as you’re not violating trademarks and are compliant with the regulations in that particular field, there’s nothing stopping you. There’s no licensing board nor process for MA instruction. There may be local codes related to the building, occupancy, and department of health stuff, but nothing stating MA credentials. Insurance companies will have their distinct regulations as will landlords. No government agency is going to deny you an MA school license to operate because you didn’t provide an MA teaching certificate.

Caveat emptor and all that good stuff.

 

[Buka]

Yeah, but for every Bill Blank, there's a dozen Master Ken's and a hundred a Rex Kwon Do's.

Man, wouldn't it be great to actually go visit and train with the guy who plays Master Ken?

 

[skribs]

Man, wouldn't it be great to actually go visit and train with the guy who plays Master Ken?

That guy yes. The guy he's parodying? No.

 

[Jaeimseu]

In Taekwondo, you need to be certified with an organization. Technically anyone could open an unaffiliated school, but those are generally seen as less credible.

If someone were to post "is this a good school?" on a Taekwondo site and link to a school called Skribs Taekwondo, and there was nothing that could link me to any organization, everyone would say it's a huge red flag and not to go there. On the other hand, if Skribs Taekwondo was affiliated with Kukkiwon, at least the fact that I were given a rank from them would give me some level of credibility.

With any art with a large organization, you'll need some sort of status from the organization to open a school. Or you can create your own lineage for whatever credibility it will have.

IMO, this simply isn’t true. Affiliation to an organization is something that we care about as experienced martial artists, but I don’t think the typical prospective student knows or cares anything about it.

Anecdotally speaking, I’ve been open for about 3 years. I’ve spoken to exactly one prospect who inquired about my certification or affiliation. And I don’t bring it up when I talk to people. I don’t talk much about myself at all unless I get a specific question.

Veteran Taekwondo people may see an unaffiliated school as less credible, but Joe public likely does not. My experience is that people find a school through Google or an ad, call or fill out a contact form, and then maybe come in for a trial class. If they perceive value in the program, they enroll. Certificates (and even price) don’t really matter (to potential clients) in my experience.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[skribs]

IMO, this simply isn’t true. Affiliation to an organization is something that we care about as experienced martial artists, but I don’t think the typical prospective student knows or cares anything about it.

I see a lot of posts online "is this a good school?" Not here, but other sites like Reddit. And no affiliation is a big red flag.

 

[wab25]

I know because, as I stated, I also happen to know who is being discussed. Xue might be private, but the person being discussed and accused of being a fraud is NOT as private. He used to be quite active on here a few years back.

Also, NY might not have mentioned names, but he made it pretty clear he was talking about someone who said he had been offered the chance to teach a full-year course at an upstate NY college, but they wanted a certificate that gave him permission to teach. He could not produce one because the place where he trains just doesn't issue them.

Having said all that, I know the person in question, and he is adamant about NOT being identified as a Sifu. NY is partially right in that he was not certified to teach. However, he was given PERMISSION to teach. NY says he "knows this person's instructor." I guarantee you: he means the person's OLD instructor.

Look at it this way: if you are training at Wing Chun School #1, but then you move away and have to start going to Wing Chun School #2 in order to keep training, then why would you need to be certified to teach by Wing Chun School #? You don't train there anymore! And I doubt school #2 would call school #1 and say, "I want to certify this guy to teach. What do you think?" No, sir. The new school wouldn't contact the old one to get "permission" like that.

I don't know what NY's problem is, because the person in question is someone I have known for a while and talk to regularly. I know that, aside from an email they sent to NY last summer where they apologized for how their relationship went sideways, the unnamed person hasn't even THOUGHT about NY for the last two years. Meanwhile, NY is on this site, bashing away and griping about someone who never even utters his name.

Sad, really.

As for fraudbusting, I am not sure what your rules are about that. Since the person is not named, but it is made pretty clear who NY means by the way he describes their "credentials" thread, I think it would be worth looking at. Then again, it's your site, so what do I know?

Here is the sad part. This issue was brought up over a year ago. There was a discussion about it, which then got a little side tracked... then it got forgotten about. Then it got buried under hundreds of other threads, about other things. Now that you have joined, and responded with your side of the story... the biggest thing you did, was to bring this issue to the front again. Many of the folks in the original discussion had forgotten all about it and had to reread the thread to remember who and what it was about. There are now a bunch of new people getting interested in this thread again... and in those involved. And because there is even more drama.... people will be more curious.

But, you said that last summer, emails were sent to repair the relationship. As long as efforts are being made to repair the relationship... why are you dragging their dirt back out for everyone to see? Two parties have a dust up with each other... then one or both (I don't really know) tries to repair the relationship and move past it... and here you come dragging out the their old dirt, that everyone else has moved on from and forgotten about. Why try to restart something that doesn't need to be restarted? That's the sad part here. Sometimes its better to let forgotten things be forgotten.

 

[dvcochran]

To comment off what @JR 137 and @Steve have said; I think both are correct.
In TN and in the research I have done there is no legislation requiring proof of a level martial arts proficiency required to open a business. So yes, anyone can go out and open up 'Joe's Shaolin Ninja Praying Mantis Systema gym'. If you research some of the requirements for gyms and dance schools you will find that a MA's school will fall under those guidelines. They have some fairly loose verbiage about intent and offering. It checks the boxes very good for health and safety but beyond that, free enterprise is left to it's own devices. There are no specific requirements for accreditation.
From a governmental perspective, it is easier and proven that service industries are largely self regulated by virtue of their ability to deliver a product people are willing to pay for.
In the business/marketing aspect of it all it is just easier to build a MA's business when it is affiliated with a larger body. Organizationally, product(s) offered, extended activities (tournaments and such) advancement, etc.... all become easier and much more robust. Marketing is Much easier.
One variance I have often seen is whether a business is marketing a school/system or a person/instructor. The latter is usually the person who is starting their own style/school from scratch or breaking away from an established one. Usually a much taller order that requires more time and input to get established. The first example of extremes that come to mind are the Gracie's and Tiger Rock.
The Gracie's took a few ideas from various styles and created a hugely effective style/system that has grown exponentially in popularity largely due to proven effectiveness and good marketing.
Tiger Rock is the largest TKD business in the US. It is the most closed loop, isolated organization I have ever seen. They do their own thing and only their thing. They have zero interaction with the rest of the TKD world and work very hard to keep it that way. Their marketing budget has to be enormous but it does one hell of a good job. It is much more a money making business rather than a MA's school as most of us would think of one.
Is one right and one wrong? That is for you to decide.

 

[Dan Draper]

You only joined today....how do you know this person was active on here years ago?...

I would have thought this was obvious, but I guess not. What I am saying is, I know him in real life. In fact, he and I discussed a lot of this stuff just after it happened.

 

[Dan Draper]

Here is the sad part. This issue was brought up over a year ago. There was a discussion about it, which then got a little side tracked... then it got forgotten about. Then it got buried under hundreds of other threads, about other things. Now that you have joined, and responded with your side of the story... the biggest thing you did, was to bring this issue to the front again. Many of the folks in the original discussion had forgotten all about it and had to reread the thread to remember who and what it was about. There are now a bunch of new people getting interested in this thread again... and in those involved. And because there is even more drama.... people will be more curious.

But, you said that last summer, emails were sent to repair the relationship. As long as efforts are being made to repair the relationship... why are you dragging their dirt back out for everyone to see? Two parties have a dust up with each other... then one or both (I don't really know) tries to repair the relationship and move past it... and here you come dragging out the their old dirt, that everyone else has moved on from and forgotten about. Why try to restart something that doesn't need to be restarted? That's the sad part here. Sometimes its better to let forgotten things be forgotten.

Maybe I brought this up today, but you are incorrect in one thing: where the sadness lies. By the time NYFIGHTSOURCE started this thread, he and the person in question had already been not talking for about a year. If you are going to say it's sad of ME to bring it up a year later, then don't forget where it originated.

 

[wab25]

Maybe I brought this up today, but you are incorrect in one thing: where the sadness lies. By the time NYFIGHTSOURCE started this thread, he and the person in question had already been not talking for about a year. If you are going to say it's sad of ME to bring it up a year later, then don't forget where it originated.

This thread was started on Feb 1, 2019. By Feb 4, 2019... this forum had moved on. This thread was forgotten. This history, became buried at that point, as far as this forum, and its participants were concerned. Then, as you said, your guy, the one who got the short end of the stick, tried to repair the relationship and move on. You said he did this last summer, so summer of 2019. This is well after this forum forgot all about this thread and that issue. Then, on May 26, of 2020, you brought this thread, and their dirty laundry out for us all to see again. That's almost a year after your guy took steps to move on and repair the relationship.

These kind of things rarely make anyone involved look good. But hey, this is your guy. If you want to drag out his dirty laundry for the world to see and examine again... I am all for it. Lots of entertainment for me. I love going through other people's dirty laundry... If you hadn't brought it up, look at all the fun I would be missing now. Feel free to keep this going... I paid for my ticket and I want to get my money's worth...

I just hope your guy appreciates you dragging his dirty laundry out again... but that's between you and him.

 

[Steve]

Man, this is like a telenovella. The next episode is where we find out that @Dan Draper is really the other guy's (@wingchun100 's?) clone from a lab in Durango.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I would have thought this was obvious, but I guess not. What I am saying is, I know him in real life. In fact, he and I discussed a lot of this stuff just after it happened.

But how did you know about this thread in particular? If you were not on the forum, how would you know to look 18 pages deep on the general martial arts subforum to find a thread where no names are mentioned? Did the nameless member tell you about this thread in particular and ask you to

And like wab said,why rehash it? From your statements, it seems like they're mending it, and everyone else has forgotten about it. At the very least, coming on here and rehashing issues that your sifu has chosen not to respond to and is trying to move past (and everyone else has) is not a good look on you, as either a student or a new forum member (interesting choice of a first impression as well). Again, unless you were specifically asked to come on here to address the issue.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

THREAD LOCKED PENDING STAFF REVIEW

William H.
@Monkey Turned Wolf
MartialTalk Moderator