Self Defense (Concepts v Reality)

[now disabled]

Jujitsu, Catch Wrestling, Shao Jiao (sp?), Judo, Bjj, Sambo, etc.

ok so only arts that have ground work as in applying techs on the ground?

 

[Hanzou]

ok so only arts that have ground work as in applying techs on the ground?

Standing and ground.

 

[now disabled]

Those techniques that have a chance of being effective with the least practice. A kick in the nuts, for instance (as an example).
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe all techniques take hours and hours of practice to be of any use? In which case, I'd move to a quieter neighbourhood, lol.

It not only about learning the techs (yes the simpler the better ) but can you apply them. It not just only the takedown or the knockout there are other things too

Also do bear in mind that a load of street attacks are over quick and that requires the person defending to react that way (yes simple techs) but it requires that you are in a position and are capable of applying techs taught, eg if a druggie threatens ya with a knife demanding your wallet or what ever .......what is your priority there?

 

[now disabled]

Standing and ground.

ok

 

[jobo]

Well, no, I don't mean literally one technique - what I meant was a limited number of techniques, enough to give a range of options without confusing the student with over-complexity. Remember, I'm talking about initial training for the ready-use locker. What they are most likely to be able to use with no prior experience (I have Hanzou's daughter in mind here, and others in that situation, learning something for the first time).




Yeah, I can see that side too, lol. But again, what I mean is those techniques that the inexperienced have best chance with in the early stages of learning. Best place to hit to knock that knife from his hand, tips on applying a kick in the nether regions, that kind of thing, taught first. Of course you get better with practice and as you then begin to learn further techniques. But often, martial arts classes don't address those things first. Often, they don't come into a syllabus until much later.

First knife disarm have much the same result as not doing a knife disarm, unless your lightning fast. Or could convince someone who wasn't going to stab yiu, to stab you

Really, what you learn at white belt are all the techniques you need for street defence, if your good at them, and the guy is not a mma, fighter. Or what you learn in the fidecouple month of boxing or bjj, or what ever.

The trick is to actually be good at those few, not to keep learning new things, with out ever coming close to be competent at what you have already done

 

[LastGasp]

It not only about learning the techs (yes the simpler the better ) but can you apply them. It not just only the takedown or the knockout there are other things too

Also do bear in mind that a load of street attacks are over quick and that requires the person defending to react that way (yes simple techs) but it requires that you are in a position and are capable of applying techs taught, eg if a druggie threatens ya with a knife demanding your wallet or what ever .......what is your priority there?

Are you assuming that I mean you join a class, and that same evening you're transformed into Superman?

I'll kill myself before I'll hand over my wallet, lol.

What is the point though, in training for years and years for something that may never happen? And as I said, if you live somewhere where there's a good chance it will happen, move somewhere else! Or are you going to live somewhere that day after day, there is a high chance you'll get mugged? Then mugged again. And again. And again and again and again and...? What, you're going to deal with so many muggers that you'll become known in your area as someone not to mug? Clint Eastwood, much?! Sod that, just move! lol

 

[now disabled]

Are you assuming that I mean you join a class, and that same evening you're transformed into Superman?

I'll kill myself before I'll hand over my wallet, lol.

What is the point though, in training for years and years for something that may never happen? And as I said, if you live somewhere where there's a good chance it will happen, move somewhere else! Or are you going to live somewhere that day after day, there is a high chance you'll get mugged? Then mugged again. And again. And again and again and again and...? What, you're going to deal with so many muggers that you'll become known in your area as someone not to mug? Clint Eastwood, much?! Sod that, just move! lol

No joining a class does not turn you into superman lol

I was just asking what your priority would be in that scenario ?

You said you wouldn't give up your wallet so thereby you have made the choice to fight not flight ................so now what is your priority ?

BTW your first priority is ...your life lol

 

[jobo]

No joining a class does not turn you into superman lol

I was just asking what your priority would be in that scenario ?

You said you wouldn't give up your wallet so thereby you have made the choice to fight not flight ................so now what is your priority ?

BTW your first priority is ...your life lol

I think that was parody

 

[now disabled]

I think that was parody

you mean last gasp or me ?

 

[LastGasp]

First knife disarm have much the same result as not doing a knife disarm, unless your lightning fast.

Really, what you learn at white belt are all the techniques you need for street defence, if your good at them, and the guy is not a mma, fighter. Or what you learn in the fidecouple month of boxing or bjj, or what ever.

The trick is to actually be good at those few, not to keep learning new things, with out ever coming close to be competent at what you have already done

So get a gun. So what you get arrested for carrying it - if you don't carry it, you'll get killed or maimed for life, right? No? Your area not nasty? So don't bother learning MA for self defence at all. I live in a city, and I've never felt threatened here yet. Most folks don't, and nothing happens to most folks. Even if I were fully fit and able-bodied, I wouldn't be learning MA out of fear. And I've lived in supposedly dodgier places than now too, still didn't feel, "Oh God, I better learn MA to look after myself!" What would be the point if it took me years to get good enough to use any of it?

I get this as a motorcyclist. "Oh, but you get killed riding those things." And what's the stock reply? "Yes, but I might get run over by a bus tomorrow."

 

[Hanzou]

No joining a class does not turn you into superman lol

I was just asking what your priority would be in that scenario ?

You said you wouldn't give up your wallet so thereby you have made the choice to fight not flight ................so now what is your priority ?

BTW your first priority is ...your life lol

Considering that I have the skill to break almost every bone in the human body, and/or kill someone with my bare hands, and I have utilized that ability on much larger, resisting opponents, joining a martial art class made me very close to superman.

That said, if someone wants my wallet, they can have it.

 

[LastGasp]

That said, if someone wants my wallet, they can have it.

I'll PM you my address, lol
Oh wait, you'll just empty it first. You're no fun!

 

[Headhunter]

Personally I just do it for fun....I don't care if I can defend myself, I dont care if I can beat someone in a ring I do it because I enjoy it and have nothing better to do

 

[Steve]

Well, I will borrow from a post I wrote a few months back when this topic last came up. Most important thing, I think, is managing expectations. The best self defense training is to start out as a person who isn't a dick and does not engage in any high risk behaviors. That works for just about everyone. From there, a person who worked as a bouncer prior to enlisting in the military, and who is (or was) a cop, who also trains and competes in MMA, AND who has a particular interest in how all of these skills can apply in various contexts. Now, that guy will be excellent at self defense.

You could likely get by with just not being a dick and not engaging in high risk behaviors. Having any one of the other elements above will help.

Bottom line, though, without one of the above elements, or something very similar (i.e., a gang enforcer or some other professionally violent person), you can train self defense all day long and be no better able to defend yourself. Self defense isn't something you learn in a vacuum. It's applying skills you already have in the context of personal safety.
Look at a relatively simple skill, like CPR. It's generally performed incorrectly, and largely ineffective (as best as I can tell, people who receive bystander CPR have about the same survival rate and rate of recovery as those who do not receive help until the EMTs arrive). Self defense is like that. It makes people feel better, but otherwise, is more about feeling safer than being safer.

So, threads like this irritate me. Not because it's X vs Y. But because it's apples and apple pie. Martial sports are probably the most accessible path to self defense skills for most people. Self defense programs for regular, non-violent people, that don't include "martial sport" are deeply flawed, like an apple pie without apples.

You can teach a skill, but you can't learn it for someone. E.g., you can teach a skill to an administrative assistant the same way you teach it to a cop, but you can't learn it for them and you can't do it for them. You can, however, develop traits im folks who are receptive by teaching them behaviors.

I'm talking about the office worker, computer programmer, teacher, hair stylist or otherwise non-violent person who has never been a bouncer, soldier, cop, bodyguard or hitman. Let's call this group "almost everyone." These folks who take "self defense" classes aren't learning skills that will make them more safe. Or to be fair, there is zero evidence that they are. They MIGHT be learning behaviors that will help them be more safe, but I don't think these behaviors are specific to self defense training. Skills development in a self defense class is going to be limited, regardless of how long they train.

To be more specific, for these regular people, I think the aspects of a "self defense" course that actually help are not specific to self defense training. In other words, among the traits they are developing are self-esteem, confidence, a sense of community, positive role models, a fighting spirit, fitness, and athleticism (well, those last two are not always intrinsic to self defense classes). You can develop these same traits doing Zhumba or Tae Bo, or training for a Tough Mudder course.

Look at all the tenuous leaps of faith one must take for which there is no supporting evidence, and in some cases, evidence to the contrary:

1: You have to believe that the skills you are learning actually work for someone.
2: ... that the techniques will actually help you and not make things worse.
3: ... that you can perform a technique at all.
4: ... under pressure, in the safety of training.
5: ... outside of training, in some context (i.e., on the job, in a ring)
6: ... AND then in the context of self defense.

There are some folks teaching self defense to other folks here who think they're at 6, but are really stuck at somewhere between 3 and 4. The good news is, if you reach step 5, it's a relatively short leap to step 6.

Going back to the point I led off with, we commonly see people teach a system and then build expertise in a system. Can this work? Hard to say. And is there anything wrong with it? Nothing at all. If you have a system you teach, call it Buka-do, and you teach people to nutshot and curbstomp bad guys, it's up to you to establish the criteria for evaluating their performance. You could absolutely teach someone to be an expert in Buka-do. Will that make them able to fight off a bad guy? Absolutely no way to know.

Now, I understand that some guys insist that you can skip step 5, but I have yet to see an example of someone developing skill in something without ever actually doing it... other than self defense, of course.

 

[Martial D]

Some ??? very nearly All scrawny males can put on muscle and increase strengh, they may not reach the level of competition body builder, but that's not to say they cant be a lot bigger/ stronger than they are and quite possibly bigger and stronger than any attacker.

If they have some rare genetic condition that prevents muscle development Mma not going to help them much anyway

You can lift all the weights you want. if you can't throw a punch or gauge and control distance they won't help you much.

I find the idea that being in shape and playing basketball would somehow be enough against someone that knew how to fight a bit weird to be honest. Certainly not my experience.

 

[jobo]

You can lift all the weights you want. if you can't throw a punch or gauge and control distance they won't help you much.

I find the idea that being in shape and playing basketball would somehow be enough against someone that knew how to fight a bit weird to be honest. Certainly not my experience.

They will help you a great deal of you grab them by the throat and smash them it a wall, , there are good fighters all over the world that have never been anywhere near a ring an octagon or a dojo, any sports that gives you movement, reactions and co Ordination will help with fighting

 

[Buka]

Well, I will borrow from a post I wrote a few months back when this topic last came up. Most important thing, I think, is managing expectations. The best self defense training is to start out as a person who isn't a dick and does not engage in any high risk behaviors. That works for just about everyone. From there, a person who worked as a bouncer prior to enlisting in the military, and who is (or was) a cop, who also trains and competes in MMA, AND who has a particular interest in how all of these skills can apply in various contexts. Now, that guy will be excellent at self defense.

You could likely get by with just not being a dick and not engaging in high risk behaviors. Having any one of the other elements above will help.

Bottom line, though, without one of the above elements, or something very similar (i.e., a gang enforcer or some other professionally violent person), you can train self defense all day long and be no better able to defend yourself. Self defense isn't something you learn in a vacuum. It's applying skills you already have in the context of personal safety.
Look at a relatively simple skill, like CPR. It's generally performed incorrectly, and largely ineffective (as best as I can tell, people who receive bystander CPR have about the same survival rate and rate of recovery as those who do not receive help until the EMTs arrive). Self defense is like that. It makes people feel better, but otherwise, is more about feeling safer than being safer.

So, threads like this irritate me. Not because it's X vs Y. But because it's apples and apple pie. Martial sports are probably the most accessible path to self defense skills for most people. Self defense programs for regular, non-violent people, that don't include "martial sport" are deeply flawed, like an apple pie without apples.

You can teach a skill, but you can't learn it for someone. E.g., you can teach a skill to an administrative assistant the same way you teach it to a cop, but you can't learn it for them and you can't do it for them. You can, however, develop traits im folks who are receptive by teaching them behaviors.

I'm talking about the office worker, computer programmer, teacher, hair stylist or otherwise non-violent person who has never been a bouncer, soldier, cop, bodyguard or hitman. Let's call this group "almost everyone." These folks who take "self defense" classes aren't learning skills that will make them more safe. Or to be fair, there is zero evidence that they are. They MIGHT be learning behaviors that will help them be more safe, but I don't think these behaviors are specific to self defense training. Skills development in a self defense class is going to be limited, regardless of how long they train.

To be more specific, for these regular people, I think the aspects of a "self defense" course that actually help are not specific to self defense training. In other words, among the traits they are developing are self-esteem, confidence, a sense of community, positive role models, a fighting spirit, fitness, and athleticism (well, those last two are not always intrinsic to self defense classes). You can develop these same traits doing Zhumba or Tae Bo, or training for a Tough Mudder course.

Look at all the tenuous leaps of faith one must take for which there is no supporting evidence, and in some cases, evidence to the contrary:

1: You have to believe that the skills you are learning actually work for someone.
2: ... that the techniques will actually help you and not make things worse.
3: ... that you can perform a technique at all.
4: ... under pressure, in the safety of training.
5: ... outside of training, in some context (i.e., on the job, in a ring)
6: ... AND then in the context of self defense.

There are some folks teaching self defense to other folks here who think they're at 6, but are really stuck at somewhere between 3 and 4. The good news is, if you reach step 5, it's a relatively short leap to step 6.

Going back to the point I led off with, we commonly see people teach a system and then build expertise in a system. Can this work? Hard to say. And is there anything wrong with it? Nothing at all. If you have a system you teach, call it Buka-do, and you teach people to nutshot and curbstomp bad guys, it's up to you to establish the criteria for evaluating their performance. You could absolutely teach someone to be an expert in Buka-do. Will that make them able to fight off a bad guy? Absolutely no way to know.

Now, I understand that some guys insist that you can skip step 5, but I have yet to see an example of someone developing skill in something without ever actually doing it... other than self defense, of course.

 

[Anarax]

As the title suggests:- No more than that to see if a discussion and swapping of ideas can flow and bring forward things that everyone can benefit from.

On this forum we all have an interest in MA and to a greater or lesser degree all study the Art or Arts of our choosing. There is discussion about where arts have their flaws, what they were "created" for and what they have evolved into or not into. That is good and it gets heated and the rest as everyone has their own views and ideas, putting forward claim and counter claim for their respective arts etc.

There is a great wealth of knowledge and experience and that is good. I feel it may be getting wasted.

All the arts (maybe a few exceptions) were created for self defense, some long ago, some not so long ago, some with terminology and concepts behind them that in this day and age are not as easily empathized with or even understood. Are we failing the public in their demand for Self Defense by not seeing past our own arts?

Are we as a Martial Arts community possibly failing in some way? Among ourselves we are looking at the term self defense from the point of view of being trained Martial artists with all that entails and seem to me anyway at times look on things as such. Meaning that we in general look on any attacker as we are, competent and aware of the skills we have or don't have and the strengths or other arts compared to our own. I agree that can be fun and also exasperating. However when it comes to self defense should we not be looking at it from the other side? The general public's side, the corporate companies side, who want to offer or in the former undertake Self Defense. They are not trained and as has been raised in different places and at times (the corporate angle) do not know all that self defense is and what they as an individual or as the corporate manager either need or want. It is easy to say go study this or go study that art or system, is that not a cop out on our part? Yes if individuals ask, then sure that can be said and is said and all to the good but I do feel we are failing in some way as telling a person to go study or even the company to introduce classes in and art is missing the point and the real crux of the matter.

Martial Arts take time to study (some to a greater extent than others to achieve any level of competence) and my view is that to study any takes a great commitment both in time, energy and finance and that to the layman may not be self evident. For sure people are seeing competitions or demonstrations but are they or the corporate managers actually seeing that to get to that level it takes years of effort, study and commitment? Should we as the current standard bearers of the many and diverse arts not be doing more? Trying to see what they are seeing and from their point of view as opposed to trained Martial artists ? Yes undoubtedly as the trained artist we can say nope that won't work or that may given the right set of circumstances and for us as a community that is easier, the general public maybe not so. Do we as the current incumbents and practitioners of our arts have or think we have a duty to keep things going? To be open honest and upfront about both our arts and what they stand for and are ?

Our testing ground these days seems to be the cage or the ring (and yes for sure that is a good and legitimate test bed) however not all want to be the fighters or the competitors. Not all will want or feel the need to invest that way. So are we failing as a community? By approaching things from the wrong angle? How do we cope and assimilate the ones who do not want to be fighters or do not need everyday to use the Skills taught in MA dojo (I mean the techniques), how do we as a community make it relevant?

@Dropbear made a point in another thread that made a great amount of sense. As have others so what is the reality of Self Defense, how do we as the standard bearers of the present , cope and carry on the immensely and hugely rewarding field of the Martial Arts and to give to people who may want the full systems but also to people that want only what they need in a way that is understandable and can be accepted in the mainstream.

We can all and we all will continue to study and pursue our own arts and systems but I do feel that we are failing in some way

People will always have misconceptions about that which they don't study nor train. I don't see the misconceptions nor decline of quality of some MA as a failing on Martial Artists as a whole. People will dupe others into taking low quality martial arts classes/SD courses, for the ones taking them don't know any better. There's not much we can do other than stick to what we're doing and try to maintain the quality of our own training/MA.

I do agree that we live in an instant reward society and the simple reality of hard/long-term training being a requirement to become proficient goes against people's misinformed expectations.

 

[drop bear]

They will help you a great deal of you grab them by the throat and smash them it a wall, , there are good fighters all over the world that have never been anywhere near a ring an octagon or a dojo, any sports that gives you movement, reactions and co Ordination will help with fighting

Isn't it more efficient to build self defence physique via martial arts?

 

[jobo]

Isn't it more efficient to build self defence physique via martial arts?

Well yes and no, if you want to build muscle to impress girls and play rugby, basket bascreenplay on a,soccer team with your mates, then giving that up to train ma is not an efficient use of time. No, if all your expecting to deal with is an occasional bar fight or a kick off in the taxi queue, just being in fairly good shape will take care of that.

If you live in a world of gangsta drug deals, then it may be a good idea, though dojo are not generally full of gangsta drug dealers, so even they don't seem to brother, just lift more weights