Self Defense (Concepts v Reality)

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As the title suggests:- No more than that to see if a discussion and swapping of ideas can flow and bring forward things that everyone can benefit from.

On this forum we all have an interest in MA and to a greater or lesser degree all study the Art or Arts of our choosing. There is discussion about where arts have their flaws, what they were "created" for and what they have evolved into or not into. That is good and it gets heated and the rest as everyone has their own views and ideas, putting forward claim and counter claim for their respective arts etc.

There is a great wealth of knowledge and experience and that is good. I feel it may be getting wasted.

All the arts (maybe a few exceptions) were created for self defense, some long ago, some not so long ago, some with terminology and concepts behind them that in this day and age are not as easily empathized with or even understood. Are we failing the public in their demand for Self Defense by not seeing past our own arts?

Are we as a Martial Arts community possibly failing in some way? Among ourselves we are looking at the term self defense from the point of view of being trained Martial artists with all that entails and seem to me anyway at times look on things as such. Meaning that we in general look on any attacker as we are, competent and aware of the skills we have or don't have and the strengths or other arts compared to our own. I agree that can be fun and also exasperating. However when it comes to self defense should we not be looking at it from the other side? The general public's side, the corporate companies side, who want to offer or in the former undertake Self Defense. They are not trained and as has been raised in different places and at times (the corporate angle) do not know all that self defense is and what they as an individual or as the corporate manager either need or want. It is easy to say go study this or go study that art or system, is that not a cop out on our part? Yes if individuals ask, then sure that can be said and is said and all to the good but I do feel we are failing in some way as telling a person to go study or even the company to introduce classes in and art is missing the point and the real crux of the matter.

Martial Arts take time to study (some to a greater extent than others to achieve any level of competence) and my view is that to study any takes a great commitment both in time, energy and finance and that to the layman may not be self evident. For sure people are seeing competitions or demonstrations but are they or the corporate managers actually seeing that to get to that level it takes years of effort, study and commitment? Should we as the current standard bearers of the many and diverse arts not be doing more? Trying to see what they are seeing and from their point of view as opposed to trained Martial artists ? Yes undoubtedly as the trained artist we can say nope that won't work or that may given the right set of circumstances and for us as a community that is easier, the general public maybe not so. Do we as the current incumbents and practitioners of our arts have or think we have a duty to keep things going? To be open honest and upfront about both our arts and what they stand for and are ?

Our testing ground these days seems to be the cage or the ring (and yes for sure that is a good and legitimate test bed) however not all want to be the fighters or the competitors. Not all will want or feel the need to invest that way. So are we failing as a community? By approaching things from the wrong angle? How do we cope and assimilate the ones who do not want to be fighters or do not need everyday to use the Skills taught in MA dojo (I mean the techniques), how do we as a community make it relevant?

@Dropbear made a point in another thread that made a great amount of sense. As have others so what is the reality of Self Defense, how do we as the standard bearers of the present , cope and carry on the immensely and hugely rewarding field of the Martial Arts and to give to people who may want the full systems but also to people that want only what they need in a way that is understandable and can be accepted in the mainstream.

We can all and we all will continue to study and pursue our own arts and systems but I do feel that we are failing in some way
 

jobo

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As mas, we have a screwed view of the world, and it seem a little paranoia, that we need to learn or fine Tune another technique or 10, to be able to defend ourselves, which may be true, but probably isnt.

There are lots and lots of people walking round who are capable of putting up a robust defence against most people, very very few of these are mas, they usually have good strengh, fast reaction but only very rudimentary fighting skills.

So the first question is do you even need ma at all, beyond learning a few punches and trips, if you haven't already picked that up as a child,?
 

Hanzou

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The first mistake is believing that skills that work in the ring, mat, or ring won't apply in a self defense situation. People actively avoid fighting arts because they delude themselves into thinking that learning how to actually fight isn't a useful skill, or that they're somehow more evolved than a cage fighter or a boxer.
 

jobo

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The first mistake is believing that skills that work in the ring, mat, or ring won't apply in a self defense situation. People actively avoid fighting arts because they delude themselves into thinking that learning how to actually fight isn't a useful skill, or that they're somehow more evolved than a cage fighter or a boxer.
Well possibly, but let's take sandra,a petite pretty girl who wants to walk to get car after dark, are you saying that she should let her self get beaten up twice a week, so she doesn't get beaten up , nether sandra n or I can see the logic in that
 

Hanzou

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Well possibly, but let's take sandra,a petite pretty girl who wants to walk to get car after dark, are you saying that she should let her self get beaten up twice a week, so she doesn't get beaten up , nether sandra n or I can see the logic in that

I would say that Sandra should look into purchasing a pepper spray/taser, a self defense course, and Bjj in order to better protect herself. She won't get "beat up" in Bjj. Roughed up, but not beat up.
 

LastGasp

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Replies like the above make me wonder if I am doing the right thing, resurrecting my interest in MA.
 

jobo

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I would say that Sandra should look into purchasing a pepper spray/taser, a self defense course, and Bjj in order to better protect herself. She won't get "beat up" in Bjj. Roughed up, but not beat up.
Ok so that rules out your mma, and boxing sugestion,

Or Peter who 25 and hitss the weights, and plays basket ball, he strong and fast, he can robustly defend himself against most people, why does he need to do boxing, when he could use the same time to get even stronger and faster with his existing sports,
 

LastGasp

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No, you probably shouldn't.

Fortunately, I can see beyond just the fighting side, to things MA can teach that are not taught in a way I like elsewhere.

Genuine question - how old are you? Ball-park will do if you're sensitive about it.
 

Hanzou

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Ok so that rules out your mma, and boxing sugestion,

I did include "the mat" in my suggestions. That would include arts like Bjj.

Or Peter who 25 and hitss the weights, and plays basket ball, he strong and fast, he can robustly defend himself against most people, why does he need to do boxing, when he could use the same time to get even stronger and faster with his existing sports,

Obviously Peter wouldn't need MA to defend himself. In his case, MA would be more of an exercise or something to do for fun and leisure. Being rather large and athletic myself, I also didn't have to worry much about someone attacking me.
 

Hanzou

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Fortunately, I can see beyond just the fighting side, to things MA can teach that are not taught in a way I like elsewhere.

Budo teachings and prancing around in kimonos won't do much good when someone is on top of you trying to choke you to death.

Genuine question - how old are you? Ball-park will do if you're sensitive about it.

Soon to be 42. Sad to say.
 

LastGasp

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Budo teachings and prancing around in kimonos won't do much good when someone is on top of you trying to choke you to death.



Soon to be 42. Sad to say.

Well, I'm 52, and I haven't found anyone on top of me trying to choke me to death yet, lol.
 

Hanzou

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Well, I'm 52, and I haven't found anyone on top of me trying to choke me to death yet, lol.

Probably because you're not a petite young female. Consider yourself fortunate. I have a daughter who is a petite young female in her late teens, and the stories she tells me about how men catcall her, follow her, and verbally abuse her on the street is quite frightening.

It's quite easy to see how things can escalate beyond simple verbal taunting and awkward stalking.
 

drop bear

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A martial art has layers like an onion.

The idea is you give people the tools and the motivation to be the best they can.

But however far people take that is up to them. We have one class that contains fighters, martial hobbyists, fitness challenge people and cops who use the art for self defence.

Everyone can support everyones goals even though they are different from person to person.

This means sometimes the fighters have to take time out to train the hobbyists and some times the hobbyists have to step up and help the fighters.

I don't see how you guys have a conflict of concept.

 

jobo

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I did include "the mat" in my suggestions. That would include arts like Bjj.



Obviously Peter wouldn't need MA to defend himself. In his case, MA would be more of an exercise or something to do for fun and leisure. Being rather large and athletic myself, I also didn't have to worry much about someone attacking me.
yoga uses mats, I take it your not recommending that ?,but you expresly mentioned mma and boxing.

So yes, Peter doesn't need boxing to defend himself, now, doing more weights and basket ball will continue his development, which takes me back to my original point,
Do people actually need a ma, to be able to defend against most people, could they play other sports and get much the same result
 

Hanzou

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yoga uses mats, I take it your not recommending that ?,but you expresly mentioned mma and boxing.

Last I checked, Yoga isn't a martial art.

So yes, Peter doesn't need boxing to defend himself, now, doing more weights and basket ball will continue his development, which takes me back to my original point,
Do people actually need a ma, to be able to defend against most people, could they play other sports and get much the same result

Again, if you're a muscular athletic male, probably not. If you're a scrawny little guy, or a female, I would highly recommend it.
 
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Budo teachings and prancing around in kimonos won't do much good when someone is on top of you trying to choke you to death.



Soon to be 42. Sad to say.


I didn't expect you to add anything that would not include so form of having ago at the TMA (again your definition of said)

Oh and what arts do wear full kimono to train?

And buying pepper spray or a taser, jobo can't nor can sandra if she in the UK as she would be arrested , just for your information


I was kinda hoping that this would not got to the stage of you banging on purely about what is wrong with every art you don't approve of and why and saying basically it BJJ or forget it ,
 

jobo

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Last I checked, Yoga isn't a martial art.



Again, if you're a muscular athletic male, probably not. If you're a scrawny little guy, or a female, I would highly recommend it.
Well it's not at all dissimilar to a number of ma, but anyway a fairly advanced level of yoga, gives you Extreme strengh, so it will with our doubt help at self defence.

So big guys don't need ma, but scrawny guys do, wouldnt that suggest that scrawny guys may just as well spend their time becoming big guys
 

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